The question I have about the paper backup is this: I never actually got to check it to make sure it aligned with what I voted. (At the time, I wasn’t worried about it, as I assumed that security on these machines was top notch, that the government had the entire source code and kept the machines clean, and other stuff I now know isn’t a thing.) So how do we know the paper trail hasn’t been tampered with as well? Just tamper occasionally.
I really don’t see the problem with the old mechanical devices that punched a card for you. They were easy enough to figure out, if you didn’t want to use the old pencil/bubble tech. All of these could be sure to not have been tampered with, and then, you could allow a hand recount if the automated account is in question.
It’s just the opposite. The private companies which build voting machine keep the source code secret, even from government, since it’s their intellectual property.
When researchers capable of disassembling the code in ROMs attempt to buy a voting machine to check its integrity, they are often thwarted. (That the governments who buy such machines don’t welcome such integrity tests is … baffling?)
AFAIK nobody has definitely proved that voting machines have been rigged to affect an electoral outcome, but there is so much circumstantial evidence, so much opportunity for cheating, and so little reason to use these abominations in the first place, that I continue to find the acceptance of these machines baffling. I assume that the 38% think “Well, if anybody’s cheating it’s my team anyway, so Goody Goody!”, while the 62% will get around to this after more pressing issues like forcing Trevor Noah and all America’s other comics to apologize.
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I think everyone’s viewing this meddling wrong, sure it might be a problem now but there’s a potentially lucrative opportunity.
So we assume that Russia has been paying off lots of Republicans so it’s their party now…clearly this demonstrates that the US is producing a valuable commodity for export: US Political Influence.
Now you might need to break from a 2-party system to fully leverage this but you should start by making overtures to the EU, there’s a nice unbought Democratic party that they might like, maybe wave the Greens at Canada.
If you make a few more parties, imagine the boost to the economy, all that foreign money coming in, lots of jobs provided in the running for government industry. And all the meddling would possibly balance out and you’d end up with actually fair elections.
A lot of the problem with investigating election fraud is that the other side pushes things like this. We saw it with Diebold, and we see it now. It distracts from investigating real problems, if any.
Shodan, how do you know that tampering with voting machines isn’t a real problem? It’s a lot more worrisome than all of the problems that Republicans worry about, because those are detectable, and have been proven to be very, very small. Voter machine tampering, however, is known to be possible, undetectable with many current machines, and could all by itself swing an election (even a not particularly close one).
How do you know there aren’t invisible birds flying over your head?
septimus claims it “probably” already happened. There is no evidence that it did. It’s not a question of how I know it’s not a real problem - it’s a question of how you know it is a real problem.
That’s the point of my remark about the bet (and to my playing straight man to BobLibDem). If it’s real, let’s see the evidence. If no evidence is forthcoming, and still the conspiracy theories fly, nothing can be done or needs to be done. Conspiracy theories are immune to evidence.
The bet is defined in relation to the new apportionment of the House of Representatives, which I think will be settled by Congress in 2021 and must be in place for the 2022 election. This should involve very well-defined numbers, and has nothing to do with new “evidence” or conspiracy theories. Thus, every vowel and every consonant in the most recent post is a non sequitur!
I suppose Trump’s junta could refuse to accept the new census or to re-apportion. In that case many of us will have concerns greater than who wins the bottle of absinthe.
So you think the 2020 census is being rigged and subverted, and that voting machine hacks have probably swung some elections, but you don’t think it is a conspiracy. Oooookay then.
We know absolutely 100% that it’s a problem. No, we don’t know whether any votes were actually changed… and that’s what the problem is. If the system were any good, we would know definitively that no votes were changed.
For those of us who are not American, can you explain why election security is the responsibility of the Federal government and not the State governments?
It does seem silly, and I mentioned the Congress vote primarily as an example of how strongly the GOP opposes election integrity.
However be aware that
(1) elections for federal office are subject to federal law;
(2) Taxpayer revolts and GOP malice have left many state governments severely underfunded;
(3) 49 out of the states (all but Vermont) have constitutional (45) or statutory (4) requirements that budget be balanced – they can only spend what they raise in taxes.
This is in contrast to the federal government, which borrows like a horny fiend turned loose in a fun-house.
I’m unclear on why your post said “(though not Texas!)”. The article you linked to specifically mentioned Texas as another state likely to be affected:
The point of the census is not to incentivize on de-incentivise anything. It is a fact finding mission whose purpose is the non-partisan goal of getting an accurate count of the number of residents in a state. Using it as a political hammer to influence policy one way or another is anti-democratic. Note the count is of residents legal or not* so having a question that makes a portion of the residents fear prosecution if they return the form is contrary to this purpose.
If you object to this interpretation perhaps you would be in favor of a compromise. Say, counting them as 3/5ths of a person.
Let’s say that you and I make a bet on a coin toss.
I flip the coin, look at it, but do not show it you, and then declare that I have won the bet.
Is it a conspiracy theory to demand that I show you the results of the coin toss? Even if we’ve never made a bet before?
Because as far as I am concerned, that is what we have here: No ability to verify the truth of something that is very easily tampered with. And people reducing the amount of money that might be spent to make this either more verifiable or less easily tampered with.
The bet is defined in relation to the new apportionment of the House of Representatives, which I think will be settled by Congress in 2021 and must be in place for the 2022 election. This should involve very well-defined numbers, and has nothing to do with new “evidence” or conspiracy theories. Thus, every vowel and every consonant in the most recent post is a non sequitur!