# I own an SUV. Am I evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465 "2009-03-31T17:25:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/61 "2009-04-01T15:44:19Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > This story reminds me of my parents. They have two working vehicles–a V4 station wagon and a V6 sedan. The larger vehicle gets better gas mileage. (And they owe more on the sedan than it’s worth, so it’s not worth trading it in) Which works out well, I suppose, since the station wagon gets more miles put on it out of necessity anyways. A “V4”? Do you mean flat 4 (subaru) or is there actually a V4 configuration out there. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/62 "2009-04-01T15:51:11Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Likewise if you are the kind of person who believes that only the law imposes real limits on his self-gratification. Again, I cannot judge whether anyone who does this is “evil”, but I certainly can judge the quality of the choices this person has made. And if I choose to make those choices, I can also choose to not care about your opinion of those choices. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/63 "2009-04-01T16:02:28Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Thank you for saying this. Since when did we stop being able to decide some behavior makes you a jerk? Since never, AFAIK. But a person’s assessment that an action I take makes me a jerk does not necessarily mean that I won’t take that action and definitely doesn’t mean that I am under some obligation not to take that action. Also, I will not “be surprised” when that person thinks I’m a jerk or calls me a jerk for taking that action. (In these types of discussions people often say “well don’t be surpised if” blah blah blah. Trust me, I will not be surprised.) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/64 "2009-04-01T16:04:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And if I choose to make those choices, I can also choose to not care about your opinion of those choices. Imagine that. And I can choose not to care that you don’t care and… Yeah. What I can do, though, is be thankful that there aren’t more people in the world whose lives are exclusively driven by thoughtless self-gratification. I can also only hope that more people who feel trapped in unhappy, self-gratifying lives will recognize the sources of their unhappiness and make the necessary corrections. But it takes all kinds to move the world. > [@](#): > > There was panic in the parlours and howling in the halls, > There was crying in the cow-sheds and shrieking in the stalls, > When the Toad- came- home! > When the Toad- came- home! > There was smashing in of window and crashing in of door, > There was chivvying of weasels that fainted on the floor, > When the Toad-came home! > Bang! go the drums! > The trumpeters are tooting and the soldiers are saluting, > And the cannon they are shooting and the motor-cars are hooting, > As the- Hero- comes! > Shout- Hoo-ray! > And let each one of the crowd try and shout it very loud, > In honour of an animal of whom you’re justly proud, > For it’s Toad’s- great- day! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/65 "2009-04-01T16:09:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > That’s what I’m asking. In every SUV debate people always say there are legitimate reasons for owning an SUV, but those reasons seem to boil down to “because I _want_ to do something that requires an SUV.” > > It seems to me, the debate should be about whether SUV owners are paying the full cost of owning and operating that SUV. And that should include indirect costs such as increased wear and tear on roads, cost of dealing with air pollution (including CO2 emission and its effect on global climate), cost of our nation’s dependency on foreign oil, etc. My point, which I may have not made clear, was that they should not have to justify need. They want it, they get it. Wear and tear on roads is already covered in taxes. Whether the money actually goes to road repair is a whole 'nother can of worms, but, there are taxes levied for road maintenance. Air pollution is a given, so long as we burn fuel of any kind - oil, coal, wood for old timey steam engines. Even without vehicles, we pollute, to generate electricity. So in an indirect way, even “green” electric vehicles could be considered as polluters. We run on oil. We used to run on coal and wood. We were still “burning stuff” and polluting. The western world “decided” to run on oil because at one time it was seen as being cheap and plentiful. I suppose now, “we” are paying the piper? But it seems that whenever a person wants to “take away” something from someone else, one of their first arguments is “prove you need it”. Many of us would say “We don’t have to”. If we had to prove a need, for everything, there would be nothing left. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/66 "2009-04-01T16:12:10Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Imagine that. And I can choose not to care that you don’t care and… > > Yeah. > > What I can do, though, is be thankful that there aren’t more people in the world whose lives are exclusively driven by thoughtless self-gratification. I can also only hope that more people who feel trapped in unhappy, self-gratifying lives will recognize the sources of their unhappiness and make the necessary corrections. But it takes all kinds to move the world. What do you mean by “thoughtless self-gratification”? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/67 "2009-04-01T16:19:21Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to live your life, but I completely object to the idea that permissibility and legality are the only relevant guides to living one’s life. You are free to object and the OP is free not to care. > [@even sven](#): > > Thank you for saying this. Since when did we stop being able to decide some behavior makes you a jerk? Everyone is someone elses “jerk”. I do not own a car, so I am morally superior to all of you. As far as I am concerned, any of you who do own a car or don’t take public transportation are closer to the SUV driving in terms of evilness than you are to me and my superior car-free lifestyle. Yes, you are legally allowed to drive a car, and I am not one to pressure you into changing your lifestyle choice of fucking up the entire world. But all of you are worse than Hitler. Now see how much of a douchebag I sound like? That’s how you anti-SUV people sound to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/68 "2009-04-01T16:27:05Z")
Amen and amen, Monsieur Smith. However, I must inform you that I am morally superior to you because I bought a vehicle (thus stimulating the economy) but take public transportation to work (thus using the car only when I “need” to)an and the economic stimulation good clearly outweighs the occasional use evil). You, therefore, are clearly a jerk. Now go buy something expensive. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/69 "2009-04-01T16:29:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You are free to object and the OP is free not to care. > > Everyone is someone elses “jerk”. > I do not own a car, so I am morally superior to all of you. As far as I am concerned, any of you who do own a car or don’t take public transportation are closer to the SUV driving in terms of evilness than you are to me and my superior car-free lifestyle. Yes, you are legally allowed to drive a car, and I am not one to pressure you into changing your lifestyle choice of fucking up the entire world. But all of you are worse than Hitler. > > Now see how much of a douchebag I sound like? That’s how you anti-SUV people sound to me. I also, don’t own a car (right now) as a matter of simply deciding I didn’t need one vs cost of maintenace/insurance/etc. That was my choice. It was not the result of someone else deciding what I need or don’t need. I also use public transportation. So I too am talking from a “higher plain of existence”. 😃 Finally, just like you, am am “pro choice” when it comes to personal conveyance decisions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/70 "2009-04-01T16:44:50Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Technically, it’s a “crossover vehicle”, whatever that means, but the point is it’s a larger than average car. > > I see a lot of comments on some of the message boards and blogs I read criticizing the ownership of large cars. Yes, they burn more gas. Whether because of environmental concerns or political concerns (e.g., increased dependence on foreign oil), that’s a bad thing. I get that. > > Am I wrong? Those of you who are critical of large cars, please tell me what you think I should be doing differently. Well, for those of us that say we have no right to judge the OP, I will point out \*he asked us \*to do so. Now, I can say the OP is gullible for having been taken in by the salesman preying on his parents sense of responsibility, by the salesmans lying claims that a SUV is “safer”. **(it’s not)** Does one child and attendant “stuff” mean you NEED a larger car? Well, if you were driving a two-seater before then sure. But a Honda Civic will hold a kid and all the gear. I know several parents who have two kids and their Civic or similar autos can hold it all. As has been said, there are plenty of smaller SUVs, even Hybrids, who are not that bad in the carbon footprint/gas milage area. If you _want_ the conveience, then one of those should fill the bill nicely. Honda CRV, Saturn Greenline, Subaru Forester, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/71 "2009-04-01T16:57:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A “V4”? Do you mean flat 4 (subaru) or is there actually a V4 configuration out there. Just curious. I might be confusing terms, I’m not exactly a car girl. They have a 4-cylinder Optra and a 6-cylinder Epica. And to answer the other question, the Optra (station wagon) is larger. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/72 "2009-04-01T17:15:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do either of those questions have to do with anything? If I wanted to drive an armoured Humvee down the road and it was street legal where I lived, I am perfectly able to do so, and I wouldn’t give two hoots about the answers to those questions. If you think I’m am doing something immoral, then that is the only result–you think I am doing something immoral. That would have no effect on me whatsoever. By that logic then, you’d be perfectly comfortable as a pedestrian/other driver with me driving around in my armored vehicle with rotating sawblades protruding from the sides, sharpened spikes bolted to the front bumper, and razor wire mounted on the roof, as _long as it was street legal_, correct? You’d be fine with my attitude of “If I ever get in a wreck, I want to make _absolutely sure_ the other guy gets it worse than me”, right? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/73 "2009-04-01T17:31:42Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > By that logic then, you’d be perfectly comfortable as a pedestrian/other driver with me driving around in my armored vehicle with rotating sawblades protruding from the sides, sharpened spikes bolted to the front bumper, and razor wire mounted on the roof, as _long as it was street legal_, correct? You’d be fine with my attitude of “If I ever get in a wreck, I want to make _absolutely sure_ the other guy gets it worse than me”, right? That would be pretty cool looking. Rand isn’t talking about being able to grind up pedestrians, he’s just talking about being able to drive the sort of car he wants to drive. There’s nothing sinister, evil, or murderous about that. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/74 "2009-04-01T17:37:28Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you mean by “thoughtless self-gratification”? This is a fair question and talking about this sort of thing might even merit its own thread. We have lots of points of view represented here. A “thoughtless” decision-making process is basically limited to evaluating whether or not you want something, whether it is in your power to acquire, and whether the consequences for acquiring it exceed the benefits to you. This works fine in formal economics when you abstract away all of the annoying details to model the decisions of the _i_th person or firm given payoffs and probabilities. But it is just that, an abstraction. I don’t think it is necessarily the best guideline to the decision-making of actual individuals because in my experience and observation, it does not make people happy and can lead to spectacular market failures. The calculation is obvsiously not thoughtless insfar as the decisions are not completely random. I am happy to rename thoughtless to something less ambiguous or possibly normative, like “shmoughtless”. It doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that the decision-making process ignores the context of acquiring this thing, the potential harm to others, or even asking yourself if there may be other duties or obligations aside from utilitarian considerations that might be affected by your acquisition of this thing. There is an ethical dimension to every consumption decision which is, as it should be, ignored in considerations of utility. But I am very comfortable asserting that for the vast majority of the human race, utility is not the only consideration. For some people, this is all they need or want out of life. It’s not exactly my ideal, but that’s fine. Happiness is hard enough to acquire as it is. > [@msmith537](#): > > I do not own a car, so I am morally superior to all of you. As far as I am concerned, any of you who do own a car or don’t take public transportation are closer to the SUV driving in terms of evilness than you are to me and my superior car-free lifestyle. Yes, you are legally allowed to drive a car, and I am not one to pressure you into changing your lifestyle choice of fucking up the entire world. But all of you are worse than Hitler. > > Now see how much of a douchebag I sound like? That’s how you anti-SUV people sound to me. If that is how the “anti-SUV people” sound to you, then maybe you need to get your ears checked. Does your open-mindedness about the crap people consume extend to other areas, too? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/75 "2009-04-01T17:48:28Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > By that logic then, you’d be perfectly comfortable as a pedestrian/other driver with me driving around in my armored vehicle with rotating sawblades protruding from the sides, sharpened spikes bolted to the front bumper, and razor wire mounted on the roof, as _long as it was street legal_, correct? You’d be fine with my attitude of “If I ever get in a wreck, I want to make _absolutely sure_ the other guy gets it worse than me”, right? 1. Nothing I said requires the conclusionm that I’d be “comfortable” as you suggested (whatever that means really). I’m just saying that anyone’s opinion that doing what you described is evil or morally wrong does not impose an obligation on you not to do it. 2. If I saw you coming and I were a pedestrian, I would of course fire an RPG and demolish your vehicle if that were legal. In other words, your example is swallowed up and rendered rather feeble by the “if that were legal” bit. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/76 "2009-04-01T17:59:53Z")
Maeglin, just because I don’t consider your opinion about an action I take doesn’t mean that I don’t take anything other than my own self-gratification into account. You have set up a false dichotomy (ie, either do what Maeglin thinks is right or be all wrapped up in thoughtless self-gratification). A third option I’d that a person follows a different set of moral rules than yours. I am in the position you now occupy on a great many issues. For example, I think that Obama causing Wagoner to step down was “evil” or “immoral” or just plain “bad” or whatever. I would bet Obama agrees with my post above that he doesn’t give a hoot what I think about his action. I don’t think that Obama is all about gratifying himself because he took that action. Rather, he has a different system than mine under which he decides whether actions are good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/77 "2009-04-01T18:07:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That would be pretty cool looking. Rand isn’t talking about being able to grind up pedestrians, he’s just talking about being able to drive the sort of car he wants to drive. There’s nothing sinister, evil, or murderous about that. I’m not talking about being able to grind up pedestrians either. I just want to drive a cool looking car that has a lower fatality rate than every other automobile on the road. I want to “win” every accident I get in. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/78 "2009-04-01T18:18:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Maeglin, just because I don’t consider your opinion about an action I take doesn’t mean that I don’t take anything other than my own self-gratification into account. Ok, I was not suggesting that you were. Apologies for the unclarity. When I say “you”, I mean it generally. > [@](#): > > You have set up a false dichotomy (ie, either do what Maeglin thinks is right or be all wrapped up in thoughtless self-gratification). A third option I’d that a person follows a different set of moral rules than yours. Now this is not true. I have inferred (rightly or wrongly) from your posts that your moral calculus is grounded in rational self-interest. Almost by default this prioritizes personal considerations of utility and the categorical rules they flow from over pretty much anything else. If this is wrong, sorry. I don’t know your mind. I just react to what you say and try to connect the dots as I see them. Naturally I think this is deeply flawed, **but** if it makes you happy and does not cause unnecessary harm to others, then rock on with your bad self. I may not think it is ok from my point of view, but it is just that, my point of view. Talking about points of view is why I am here. The fact that I believe consumption is ethical does not imply that I believe SUV owners are “evil”. I may not agree with their priorities, but it takes a lot more shit in my book to get the evil label. > [@](#): > > I am in the position you now occupy on a great many issues. For example, I think that Obama causing Wagoner to step down was “evil” or “immoral” or just plain “bad” or whatever. I would bet Obama agrees with my post above that he doesn’t give a hoot what I think about his action. I don’t think that Obama is all about gratifying himself because he took that action. Rather, he has a different system than mine under which he decides whether actions are good or bad. This is entirely different. Policy always has an ethical component to it. What some people seem to be arguing here is that consumption, as long as it is within the law, pretty much doesn’t. That is what I object to. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/79 "2009-04-01T18:32:52Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > If that is how the “anti-SUV people” sound to you, then maybe you need to get your ears checked. Does your open-mindedness about the crap people consume extend to other areas, too? Pretty much. What should I care about what people choose to consume? Go be a fat ass and eat McDonalds every day. Or be a vegetarian. What’s it to me? And regardless of what I think, people are free to buy whatever they want as long as it’s not illegal. Why should they care if I take issue with it? Let’s face it, the guy who buys the red Hummer does not care if you think he’s a jerk. He buys it BECAUSE he knows people like you think he’s a jerk (and presumably to impress other A-holes). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465/80 "2009-04-01T18:42:11Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > I’m not talking about being able to grind up pedestrians either. I just want to drive a cool looking car that has a lower fatality rate than every other automobile on the road. I want to “win” every accident I get in. SUVs do NOT have " lower fatality rate than every other automobile on the road" in fact they have an average or above average fatality rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-own-an-suv-am-i-evil/491465.md?page=5)