# I pit 2 douchebag lawyers: Paul R. Hansmeier and John L. Steele **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 19, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173 "2016-12-19T20:01:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/21 "2016-12-20T05:10:55Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > No. I post stuff on the Internet all the time, but I retain copyright to it, and could (in theory) sue anyone who used it in a manner I don’t agree with. > > This is true, but it’s not because you’ve posted your text in a public forum. It’s because when you registered with the SDMB, you granted them a licence to publish your text. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m not saying you can’t sue somebody for using your work in a manner you didn’t agree with - that’s basic copyright law. I’m saying you can’t sue somebody for using your work in a manner you **did** agree with. By posting movies they held the copyright to on a bit torrent site, weren’t Hansmeier and Steele agreeing to let people download it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/22 "2016-12-20T05:19:10Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > It reminds me a bit of what Tracy Lords did (I’m going from memory, so forgive any details I get wrong. I’m at work, and can’t really do a search for Tracy Lords). > > She made several adult films, and then it was revealed that she was under the age of 18 when those films were made. As a result, they fell under child pornography laws. You couldn’t buy them or download them out of fear of being busted for breaking the law. > > So then, if memory serves, she made ONE film where she was of legal age. And she held the copyright to it. If you wanted to see her, you either had to risk possession of child porn, or buy the adult one, which basically meant you had to pay her for it. If I recall correctly, this was all in the pre- to early days of the internet, so finding the stuff online for free was still in the future. There may be more to the story. It’s never been established who it was that reported that Lords was underage. There’s a rumor she did it herself. She certainly benefited from it. It took all the other x-rated movies she had made off the market while giving her a great deal of publicity and increasing the demand for her x-rated movies. And she was the only person who could now legally sell an x-rated movie of herself. That said, the other person who benefited was Vanessa Williams. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/23 "2016-12-20T05:24:45Z")
98% of all lawyers give the other 2% a bad name … such a shame too … ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/24 "2016-12-20T08:45:36Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > So if you wanted to see her in a porn you had to pay her? Who does that gold digging bitch think she is? I believe the answer is found in the punchline to an old joke: “I think we’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.” ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/25 "2016-12-20T08:46:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There may be more to the story. It’s never been established who it was that reported that Lords was underage. There’s a rumor she did it herself. She certainly benefited from it. It took all the other x-rated movies she had made off the market while giving her a great deal of publicity and increasing the demand for her x-rated movies. And she was the only person who could now legally sell an x-rated movie of herself. > > That said, the other person who benefited was Vanessa Williams. Thanks for the additional information. Like I said, I couldn’t handily look up the details at work. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/26 "2016-12-20T08:49:18Z")
I’d just like to say that “Hansmeier & Steele” would be the perfect name for a gritty TV drama about porn law. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/27 "2016-12-20T15:16:39Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > . . . …I wonder what ended up tripping them up (and yes, it’s probably in the reports already linked here, if someone has a 20 words or less summary on how they were foiled, it would be helpful). According to Popehat, things were perking along, but they were too arrogant and thin-skinned to run a businesslike con. They started filing defamation suits against critics who accused them of wrongdoing. That’s when they had to start lying to courts. And they were arrogant about that, too. One high point in the saga was a judge issuing a [Sanctions Order laden with Star Trek quotes](https://popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/PendaSanctionsOrder.pdf). It began: > [@](#): > > “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” > —Spock, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/28 "2016-12-20T15:29:05Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > . Those people were a bunch of damn potheads (but they all had glaucoma…particularly the short stocky one). Potheads are contemptible in your opinion? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/29 "2016-12-20T15:37:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Potheads are contemptible in your opinion? :dubious: Some of my best friends are potheads. Me too. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/30 "2016-12-20T17:12:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Potheads are contemptible in your opinion? :dubious: i wouldn’t say it’s “contemptible” but being proud of being a pothead is a bit sad if you’re over the age of, say, 14. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/31 "2016-12-20T17:55:56Z")
So, not contemptible, but they should live in shame? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/32 "2016-12-20T18:12:43Z")
No, just in a van down by the river…between crime solving gigs…which as far as I could tell they never actually got paid for…so either somebody (ies) were doing tricks or somebody(ies) were selling “scooby snacks” on the down low. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/33 "2016-12-20T19:58:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s not what I’m saying. I’m not saying you can’t sue somebody for using your work in a manner you didn’t agree with - that’s basic copyright law. I’m saying you can’t sue somebody for using your work in a manner you **did** agree with. > > By posting movies they held the copyright to on a bit torrent site, weren’t Hansmeier and Steele agreeing to let people download it? I have to think that’s the real focal point of the argument. Had they bought the copyrights, and then restricted themselves to going after people who were downloading it from sites where the movies/clips/photos were uploaded by other people, then they could have easily just raked in cash without doing anything particularly sketchy. But by uploading it, the implication was that they were fellow pirates, except that they then shook down other downloaders. Kind of like a for-profit honeypot server. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/34 "2016-12-20T23:33:06Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > From reading the article, two things screwed them. That they were the ones uploading the files onto the Pirates Bay and other torrenting sites, and that they lied to the Court about who the companies about who owned the copyrights. Sometimes I despair of the human race: setting up a scam, and not arranging for someone untraceable to upload the damn stuff ? Actually I _do_ seem to recall the RIAA in the past uploading files to trace addresses, but you’d have to check on TorrentFreak for details. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > So if you wanted to see her in a porn you had to pay her? Who does that gold digging bitch think she is? I read that as ‘in a pram’. > [@Smapti](#): > > I’d just like to say that “Hansmeier & Steele” would be the perfect name for a gritty TV drama about porn law. Excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/35 "2016-12-21T14:55:38Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Sometimes I despair of the human race: setting up a scam, and not arranging for someone untraceable to upload the damn stuff ? . . . . Well, they did indulge in a little identity theft to fake the ownership of one video. And then they threatened the employee whose signature they had faked . . . on his answering machine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/36 "2016-12-21T17:12:18Z")
While, as a lawyer, I find Prenda’s scheme unconscionable, as a copyright-respecting member of the public I can’t help thinking that maybe people who illegally download copyrighted material get what comes to them. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/37 "2016-12-21T17:16:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > While, as a lawyer, I find Prenda’s scheme unconscionable, as a copyright-respecting member of the public I can’t help thinking that maybe people who illegally download copyrighted material get what comes to them. If a person makes available for download material that they own the copyright for, how is it illegal to download it? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/38 "2016-12-21T18:07:36Z")
Y’know, pitting douchebag lawyers two at a time you’re gonna be at it for a looong time. But these two characters really got overenthusiastic with the profiting from douche strategies. Like the others said, they could have simply held the ownership and gone after fileshare pirates as “legit” rights squatters(\*), but wanted to make it easy for themselves to harvest the names and set up a for-profit honeypot. Then they got into lying to the court, big mistake. (\*Setting aside that I respect those doing porn more than I do rights/patent squatters, but the law is the law) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/39 "2016-12-21T19:38:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > While, as a lawyer, I find Prenda’s scheme unconscionable, as a copyright-respecting member of the public I can’t help thinking that maybe people who illegally download copyrighted material get what comes to them. You mean that you’re cool with the blackmail? ---
**Author:** ![Debillw3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Debillw3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debillw3)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173/40 "2016-12-21T20:45:14Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > If a person makes available for download material that they own the copyright for, how is it illegal to download it? That’s what makes this interesting, in my opinion. A majority of the downloaders wouldn’t have known that the uploads were done by the owners. As far as they were concerned, they were breaking the law, no different than if it was uploaded by a fan. So they would have had the intent to violate the law & followed through on it–not much different than a “To Catch a Predator” sting. You aren’t off the hook just because the 13 year old you thought you were propositioning was actually a legal adult. The difference is that, on the other end, it was done by a private entity (without government approval) with the apparent intention of lining their own pockets. That’s where your question comes in of whether or not their actions constitute permission to download freely. So, to sum up: most of the people who downloaded it did so thinking that they were stealing it; whether or not they were is up in the air. The question would be if that actual disregard for the law outweighs the seemingly illegal actions on the other side. That likely won’t be a question that’s answered until a lawsuit against them from one of the alleged victims goes to trial, as it’s actually irrelevant otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-2-douchebag-lawyers-paul-r-hansmeier-and-john-l-steele/775173.md?page=3)