# I pit all conservatives who have bought into the Halbig/King ACA trutherism nonsense **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 19, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625 "2014-12-19T00:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/141 "2015-01-02T23:08:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Rationing care {…} Not to be confused with “Death Panels” . . . 'cause they’re like totally different! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/142 "2015-01-02T23:54:48Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Well, eventually you will likely need health care you can’t afford, no matter how much you think you can control your health care needs. > > Who pays for that? > > Also, from [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States): > I mean, someone’s got to pay for that. 17.2% of GDP, and $8,608 per person. 8.9% of your $25k doesn’t seem quite so unreasonable, as much as it sucks personally. > > No one anywhere has yet proposed a reasonable way to drop costs significantly while ensuring that people actually get 21st century health care. Do you have any ideas? I do indeed have ideas. Subsidies for good health practices, for instance. This could be accomplished through regular blood work, for instance. Most health care problems could be greatly reduced through better nutrition and health practices. Also, having a single-payer system would reduce costs by roughly 20%. Yes, it might reduce quality of care slightly…but if everyone were eating like they should, exercising, etc., then the system wouldn’t be overclogged with patients, so there’d pretty much be no noticeable change in quality of care. I have other ideas, but nobody cares. I make sense, and that’s so unusual in the discussion that it scares people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/143 "2015-01-03T00:02:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > First - the ACA has helped many folks, but it has also negatively impacted many folks as well. Not everyone is better off. > > Second - There are things that we allow/condone that I would say makes almost everyone worse off but continue for the sake of principle. Many things related to free speech for example. That is not laziness. > > Third - there are things that would make everyone better off in terms of some metrics. Forcing everyone to have a nutritionally balanced diet would certainly make everyone better off in terms of healthy outcomes. We don’t do this because it has negative implications in other metrics. It would be unusual to have a course of action that makes everyone better off in all metrics, while simultaneously requiring government force to implement. Not torturing would make everyone better off and would harm no one. It harms all involved. Yet we do it for the sexual excitement it engenders in its proponents. They could substitute almost anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/144 "2015-01-03T00:26:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Not torturing would make everyone better off and would harm no one. It harms all involved. Yet we do it for the sexual excitement it engenders in its proponents. They could substitute almost anything else. That’s wonderful and all - did you come to the wrong thread or did you think the conversation was about torture? You’ll have to help out with relevance. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/145 "2015-01-03T01:06:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s wonderful and all - did you come to the wrong thread or did you think the conversation was about torture? You’ll have to help out with relevance. You made a general statement about principles. The road to hell is paved with principles, torture and lack of health care. About as relevant as the balanced diet stuff you were trying to force us to consume. Torture might involve rectally consuming it. ---
**Author:** ![1060westaddison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/8baadc/32.png) [@1060westaddison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1060westaddison)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/146 "2015-01-03T01:07:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Rationing care, tort reform, probably some others. Unless “21st century health care” means “everything we have now or want, except for less money” in which there is no way possible. > > Regards, > Shodan Tort reform wouldn’t make that much of a difference- malpractice lawsuits (including the cost of defensive medicine) make up less than 3% of the cost of American healthcare. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/](http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/) ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/147 "2015-01-03T01:16:54Z")
> [@1060westaddison](#): > > Tort reform wouldn’t make that much of a difference- malpractice lawsuits (including the cost of defensive medicine) make up less than 3% of the cost of American healthcare. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/](http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/) He knows. He’s not arguing from sincerity on that issue. Have you seriously not encountered him before? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/148 "2015-01-03T01:24:05Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You made a general statement about principles. The road to hell is paved with principles, torture and lack of health care. About as relevant as the balanced diet stuff you were trying to force us to consume. Torture might involve rectally consuming it. So a discussion about health care and health insurance, which arguably is concerned with people’s health similar to healthy diets is related to torture in your mind? Does that really make sense to you? I understand the need to try and seem witty or get points for flare but this is just confused flailing. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/149 "2015-01-03T01:31:42Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So a discussion about health care and health insurance, which arguably is concerned with people’s health similar to healthy diets is related to torture in your mind? Does that really make sense to you? I understand the need to try and seem witty or get points for flare but this is just confused flailing. You ought to see how the…heavier folk…react when I mention changing their diets. Many of them would, literally, prefer torture. No kidding. and they are what is so expensive in our health care system, largely. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/150 "2015-01-04T14:20:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Not to be confused with “Death Panels” . . . 'cause they’re like totally different! > > CMC fnord! No, they are actually related - death panels are an extreme example of the rationing of care. If we are serious about saving money on health care, we will need to say No. As in “your grandfather has dementia, we are going to let him die of pneumonia to save money. Your newborn weighs only 1500 grams - we are going to leave her to die to save money.” Etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/151 "2015-01-04T14:50:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, they are actually related - death panels are an extreme example of the rationing of care. If we are serious about saving money on health care, we will need to say No. As in “your grandfather has dementia, we are going to let him die of pneumonia to save money. Your newborn weighs only 1500 grams - we are going to leave her to die to save money.” Etc. > > Regards, > Shodan There are different levels of seriousness about saving money. After all, the very best way to save money is to spend zero – no one gets health care is the cheapest health care system. But we can be “serious” and still not say “No” to a grandpa with dementia and a low-birth-weight baby. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/152 "2015-01-04T16:43:02Z")
“Reasonable” always contains the rational, but the rational is not always reasonable. If a rational solution offends our humanity, it is not a reasonable solution. Similarly, if an arcane exercise in legalistic theology can offer two outcomes, one rational and one reasonable, we should choose the reasonable solution even if it were not as strictly rational. If the most exacting and strictly precise rationale would lead us to decide to injure or even to permit suffering needlessly, it must be rejected. We are humans, not spreadsheets, this is the superiority of reason over rationalism. Please note that I do not address the question from my authority as Queen of Romania, as that would be unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/153 "2015-01-04T17:04:51Z")
For further proof of the illegitimacy of the King/Halbig argument, please examine [this article](http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/2014s-case-study-vertically-integrated-conservative-movement) on the vertical integration at work in this case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/154 "2015-01-04T17:27:47Z")
The legitimacy has already been explained by local, legal experts on both sides of the political spectrum. Linking you some article and saying "go read and explain this’ is just another indication that you are unwilling to accept that you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/155 "2015-01-04T19:39:47Z")
Two plus two equals five is wrong. Coors produces beer, also wrong. Sometimes, “wrong” is clear and unequivocal. But not as often as we would hope. In this instance, we have acknowledged legal scholars at odds, the **World’s Foremost Authority** on one side, **Judge Parker** on the other. And other lesser lights too minor and numerous to merit recognition. The issue is not clearly resolved. In such a situation as this, the humane interpretation is to be preferred. Otherwise, we value the law above the purpose for law. If there were some dreadful national emergency that demanded no other option but that thousands (perhaps millions?) of our fellow citizens should suffer ill health and even death…perhaps then. I contend that is not the case with “the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces”. Therefore, we should issue a Writ of Oopsy-Daisy and proceed with the ACA. We can be sure needful corrections will surface, we will tinker, we will fix. Opportunity to correct irregularities will abound,. Performing a semantic transplant is not a difficult procedure. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/156 "2015-01-05T16:40:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The legitimacy has already been explained by local, legal experts on both sides of the political spectrum. Linking you some article and saying "go read and explain this’ is just another indication that you are unwilling to accept that you’re wrong. It’s because I’m not. I’m just calling this bullshit as I see it. 😃 Do you guys remember the famous conservative meme about ACA _death spirals?_ You know, the massive insurance hikes that were _supposed_ to take place after the ACA came online & nobody but the sick & elderly signed up, creating a cascading effect that would eventually decimate the entire industry? The ironic thing about this fiasco is that because the death spirals _never materialized_ - and WON’T ever materialize barring the outcome of this lawsuit - the lunatic masterminds of _King_ are DELIBERATELY trying to create them in order to further sabotage the ACA. Fucking pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/157 "2015-01-05T16:57:55Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > Do you guys remember the famous conservative meme about ACA _death spirals?_ You know, the massive insurance hikes that were _supposed_ to take place after the ACA came online & nobody but the sick & elderly signed up, creating a cascading effect that would eventually decimate the entire industry? > > The ironic thing about this fiasco is that because the death spirals _never materialized_ - and WON’T ever materialize barring the outcome of this lawsuit The verdict is very much out on these. They are being held somewhat in check at this time by interim reinsurance provisions and temporary risk corridors. Attention should be paid to the words “interim” and “temporary” here, and what happens when these phase out is an open question. See some discussion from the [National Association of Insurance Commissioners](http://www.naic.org/store/free/ASE-OP.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/158 "2015-01-05T17:50:57Z")
What reason is there to think that the phase-out of risk corridors will lead to premium increases? I thought their purpose was to avoid the necessity of a risk premium to account for uncertainty about who would sign up in the individual market. Whether the program does so successfully or not (which we don’t know as of this date), by 2016 much of that uncertainty about who will be in the market will be gone, so any consequent premium increase wouldn’t have anything to do with the risk corridors, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/159 "2015-01-05T17:57:51Z")
There was a lot more uncertainty when the program first began. But there’s always some uncertainty as there’s turnover from year to year. [And it’s not just uncertainty about “who will be in the market” but who will be in the specific plan being offered and priced by the insurer. To the extent that they have to be concerned about the consequences of misjudging the risk pool, they have to be more conservative in pricing, which then makes healthier people less incented to enroll.] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/160 "2015-01-05T18:08:03Z")
Right. The point is that there’s no particular reason to think premium increases resulting from uncertainty will be deferred to 2016, as you suggest, because the uncertainty in 2016 will be much lower. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625.md?page=9)