# I pit all conservatives who have bought into the Halbig/King ACA trutherism nonsense **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 19, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625 "2014-12-19T00:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/161 "2015-01-05T18:09:50Z")
That point is wrong. Because the uncertainty in 2016 (or whenever that program ends) would be greater than it is when the program is running. You can’t compare now to 2016 without the program. You need to compare now with the program to 2016 without. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/162 "2015-01-05T18:15:06Z")
So…you’re suggesting that there will be greater uncertainty in 2016, and that will lead to premium increases? . ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/163 "2015-01-05T18:23:53Z")
**F-P** : You’re re-defining uncertainty in that post from how we had been using it, but the point remains the same and is correct. You posit that with the expiration of that program, the increases that we would have seen in 2014 will hit us in 2016. That they were just deferred. But the level of uncertainty in 2016 will be much lower than 2014, so any risk premium that insurers will have to institute will be proportionally lower. So it doesn’t make sense to argue that the increase is just being deferred. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/164 "2015-01-05T18:29:03Z")
I’m not saying it’s “just being deferred”. I’m saying at that point the risk issue will be a greater issue than it is now, and that the risk of a spiral beginning at that point are greater than they are now. (It’s true that the risk of the spiral had there been no risk-sharing mechanisms in 2014 would have been even greater, but there were risk-sharing mechanisms in 2014, so this scenario is not a valid point of comparison.) So the fact that there has not been a “death spiral” to this point is not an indication that there will not be one in 2016 (or whenever these mechanisms phase out). This contradicts the assertion made by 2manytacos, which is why I brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/165 "2015-01-05T18:37:20Z")
That is different from the argument I thought you were making, but I still don’t think it is very persuasive. Your premise is that risk corridors were successful at reducing the financial risk from uncertainty about participants in 2014 to levels below those that will be present in 2016 without the risk corridor program. But what facts support that premise? We know that the 2014 level of uncertainty was much higher than it will be in 2016. And we know that risk corridors only subsidize part of the financial impact from getting the premiums wrong. So why isn’t it more likely that the mitigated risk present in 2014 will be higher than the unmitigated risk present in 2016? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/166 "2015-01-05T18:51:42Z")
It’s not just risk corridors, it’s also the reinsurance fund. And I didn’t say it would happen, only that it could. Reread my initial post (#157). As it happens, I was just the other day speaking to my uncle, a fellow health care actuary (now retired) and he was absolutely convinced that the bottom would (gradually) fall out of the exchange market once these supports were removed. But for me, I just look on it as a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/167 "2015-01-06T23:59:09Z")
It’s refreshing IMO getting to see more journalists joining me in [calling out this SCOTUS case for the “farce” that it is.](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120697/supreme-court-obamacare-case-what-are-king-v-burwells-consequences) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/168 "2015-01-07T00:29:06Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > It’s refreshing IMO getting to see more journalists joining me in [calling out this SCOTUS case for the “farce” that it is.](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120697/supreme-court-obamacare-case-what-are-king-v-burwells-consequences) Sorry, **2** , but this guy is not a journalist. He’s an _advocacy_ journalist. So, yeah, people pushing the same agenda you push are “joining you” in this. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/169 "2015-01-07T00:33:30Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > It’s refreshing IMO getting to see more journalists joining me in [calling out this SCOTUS case for the “farce” that it is.](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120697/supreme-court-obamacare-case-what-are-king-v-burwells-consequences) It’s refreshing to see you continuing to post links with incorrect summaries. It’s like, you have an agenda or something, almost making it illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/170 "2015-01-08T17:01:42Z")
Quick! Stop the presses! [The uninsured rate is at historic lows.](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/chart-day-obamacare-just-keeps-working-and-working-and-working) We’d better yank those subsidies away from people before they realize that they _like_ having health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/171 "2015-01-08T20:36:23Z")
> [@2ManyTacos](#): > > Quick! Stop the presses! [The uninsured rate is at historic lows.](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/chart-day-obamacare-just-keeps-working-and-working-and-working) > > We’d better yank those subsidies away from people before they realize that they _like_ having health insurance. They like having health insurance paid for by other people. This isn’t really surprising. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/172 "2015-01-08T20:51:51Z")
Wait a second! You mean to say they propose to use my money to give that penniless urchin proper vaccinations! Hold on here, give me a moment to rethink my position! Ponder, ponder, ponder… OK, I’m done. Do it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/173 "2015-01-08T21:44:24Z")
Out of curiosity, are you willing to share how much you actually paid in taxes in the last few years, on average? It might give your declaration of generosity a bit of context. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/174 "2015-01-09T00:02:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait a second! You mean to say they propose to use my money to give that penniless urchin proper vaccinations! Hold on here, give me a moment to rethink my position! > > Ponder, ponder, ponder… > > OK, I’m done. Do it. You have every right to spend your money how you see fit. Get your hand out of my pocket and stop spending my money. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/175 "2015-01-09T00:10:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have every right to spend your money how you see fit. Get your hand out of my pocket and stop spending my money. Last time I checked all developed nations on earth know how to be human. > **[Different Cultures, Different Systems: Comparing Health Care in the U.S. and...](https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2013/08/28/different-cultures-different-systems-comparing-health-care-in-the-u-s-and-taiwan/)** > > A daylong symposium in Research Triangle Park gave participants perspective on how the health care systems in the U.S. and Taiwan are different – and, in some ways, similar. By Rose Hoban Imagine you go to the doctor – a physician you haven’t seen... > [@](#): > > Until 1995, the government added groups of people piecemeal to the system – from public employees to fishermen and farmers – but about 40 percent of Taiwanese remained uninsured. > The government then switched to a single-payer system, with universal insurance, paid for by taxes and premiums determined by income. > > “Since I’m a health officer, I pay 30 percent of my insurance premium and my employer pays the other 70 percent,” Lee said. > > Many of the poor, he said, are 100 percent, or nearly so, subsidized by the government. The subsidy depends on income and profession. But we already know that humanity is not your strong subject. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/176 "2015-01-09T00:22:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You have every right to spend your money how you see fit. Get your hand out of my pocket and stop spending my money. Oh please, **Bricker**. That’s just silly and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/177 "2015-01-09T01:30:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Last time I checked all developed nations on earth know how to be human. > > [Different Cultures, Different Systems: Comparing Health Care in the U.S. and Taiwan - North Carolina Health News](http://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2013/08/28/different-cultures-different-systems-comparing-health-care-in-the-u-s-and-taiwan/) > But we already know that humanity is not your strong subject. Why do you get to define what it means to be human? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/178 "2015-01-09T01:52:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you get to define what it means to be human? I don’t need to, others more important than me already did. ‘Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane.’ -Martin Luther King Jr. "Everyone has the right to health, including health care, according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Health care is a public good, not a commodity. The U.S. health care system must fulfill these principles: \*Universality: Everyone in the United States has the human right to health care. \*Equity: Benefits and contributions should be shared fairly to create a system that works for everyone. \*Accountability: The U.S. government has a responsibility to ensure that care comes first." -Amnesty International. > **[Health Care is a Basic Human Right - Almost Everywhere but Here - PNHP](http://pnhp.org/news/health-care-is-a-basic-human-right-almost-everywhere-but-here/)** > > By Ronald Pies, M.D.OpEdNews, March 13, 2011 In a recent piece in the Boston Globe, David Abel described a 52-year-old woman named Ona Stewart. Despite being deaf and blind, she is able to live independently, and earn a living by making pottery.... > [@](#): > > Health Care is a Basic Human Right – Almost Everywhere but Here > > “Sooner rather than later, our nation will have to adopt a single-payer national health insurance program, an improved Medicare for all. Only a single-payer plan can assure truly universal, comprehensive and affordable care to all. By replacing the private insurers with a streamlined system of public financing, our nation could save $400 billion annually in unnecessary, wasteful administrative costs. That’s enough to cover all the uninsured and to upgrade everyone else’s coverage without having to increase overall U.S. health spending by one penny.” > > That said, the core issue underlying the plight of American health care is not economic, but moral: rather than regarding health care as a basic right, the U.S. sees it as a privilege – one available only to those who can afford it, or who are fortunate enough to have adequate insurance coverage. This view flies in the face of many religious teachings and traditions. Thus, Rabbi Elliot Dorff, a pre-eminent authority on Jewish medical ethics has written: > > “The fact that more than 40 million Americans have no health insurance is, from a Jewish point of view, an intolerable dereliction of society’s moral duty. The Torah, the Prophets, and the Rabbis of our tradition all loudly proclaim that God commands us to take care of the poor, the starving and the sick. We are duty-bound to find a way for all American citizens to be able to afford health care, for all American citizens.” > [@](#): > > Indeed, there is really no such thing as “free” health care; rather, universal health care is made feasible through shared societal responsibility, in the form of a publically financed, single-payer insurance system. > > It is impossible to “prove” that health care is a basic human right. There is no empirical investigation or experiment that can demonstrate the truth of this claim. Rather, it comes down to the kind of nation and world we wish to live in. > > As physician and anthropologist Dr. Paul Farmer has said: “I can’t show you how, exactly, health care is a basic human right. But what I can argue is that no one should have to die of a disease that is treatable.” It is time for the U.S. to embrace Dr. Farmer’s view, and to enact a health care policy worthy of this country’s highest moral principles. > > -Ronald Pies, M.D. > (Professor of psychiatry and lecturer on bioethics at SUNY Upstate Medical University, Syracuse, N.Y.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/179 "2015-01-09T02:01:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t need to, others more important than me already did. > > ‘Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane.’ > -Martin Luther King Jr. > > "Everyone has the right to health, including health care, according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Health care is a public good, not a commodity. The U.S. health care system must fulfill these principles: > > \*Universality: Everyone in the United States has the human right to health care. > \*Equity: Benefits and contributions should be shared fairly to create a system that works for everyone. > \*Accountability: The U.S. government has a responsibility to ensure that care comes first." > -Amnesty International. > > [Health Care is a Basic Human Right - Almost Everywhere but Here - PNHP](http://www.pnhp.org/news/2011/march/health-care-is-a-basic-human-right-almost-everywhere-but-here) How old is the human race? So far as I can tell, you have quoted the opinions of several commentators in the last 65 years or so. What makes their opinions about “inhumane” correct, especially against the objective evidence that the human race has not adopted their views for the vast majority of its existence? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625/180 "2015-01-09T02:20:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How old is the human race? > > So far as I can tell, you have quoted the opinions of several commentators in the last 65 years or so. > > What makes their opinions about “inhumane” correct, especially against the objective evidence that the human race has not adopted their views for the vast majority of its existence? I call this a “Susanita” argument, they ignore that humanity has progressed, and that we have to compare ourselves with the ones that are better, not with the ones that are worse. (The cartoon character from a very old Mafalda comic never got the point that you have to compare yourself to the ones that have better lives so one has an incentive to improve) Virtually all do see now that slavery is not a thing a human should endure. (But with you I wonder, after all you showed in a GD thread that you thought that the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott decision was a good one!) It took us 10,000 years (in civilization/historical terms) to drop Slavery; nowadays, besides giving the vote to women and minorities, health care is also seen by most civilized nations as a right. What you are pushing in you reply is just a demand to compare us to the troglodytes of the past. No, thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-conservatives-who-have-bought-into-the-halbig-king-aca-trutherism-nonsense/707625.md?page=10)