# I pit all those who say Harry Potter is evil..(Warning: Whininess.) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895 "2004-11-27T17:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/21 "2004-11-27T22:54:55Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > Ooh, thanks. I’m reading some of the threads now. Yay, I’ve finally a family I belong in. 😃 I wonder what Cecil would say to my friends if he was a Harry Potter fan. 😛 “Grow up and pray you’ll grow smarter while doing so”? Congrats on fighting the good fight, even if it does seem to be a futile cause in this case. Oh, and welcome to the boards. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/22 "2004-11-27T22:56:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder what Cecil would say to my friends if he was a Harry Potter fan. Don’t dwell on it; Cecil is not much of a “fan” type person. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/23 "2004-11-27T22:58:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Don’t dwell on it; Cecil is not much of a “fan” type person. Some would even say Cecil is not much of a person. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/24 "2004-11-27T23:03:25Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Halloween is actually a Catholic holiday with no direct historical connection to pagan Druid rituals and holidays, no matter how hard some people on both sides of the issue try to create them But according to the Profit, Jack Chick, Catholics are evil. ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/25 "2004-11-27T23:13:30Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > “Grow up and pray you’ll grow smarter while doing so”? Hehe, yes, I’d agree. And the Christians at my idiotic school also believe that Catholics are evil. Personally, I disagree. We believe and pray to the same God, right? The people in my school just want to be a pain in the ass and cause people grief. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/26 "2004-11-27T23:25:29Z")
Here is a link to my own Harry Potter hating fundy co-worker rant from a while back. I think it included some links to interviews (I don’t recall now) with Rowling form Larry King and the BBC. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261713&highlight=ca3799](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261713&highlight=ca3799) I like HP about as much as some, but my kids (7 and 8) are big fans. My son is autistic and is a HUGE HP fan. They can be obsessive and he certainly is regarding this topic and has been for 3-4 years. I know of at least one neighbor that won’t associate with us because of my son’s interest in HP. Of course, this is a lady that hands out Chick Tracts for Halloween instead of candy, so I wouldn’t want to hang with her anyway. I actually believe a conversation with me about HP helped her cement her plans to homeschool! I really wouldn’t have put much effort into knowing details of Rowling and HP if I didn’t need to protect my son from ingorant others. I was actually kind of relieved that his ‘object of interest’ was HP and not, say, Thomas the Tank Engine. The school counselor told me that Thomas will be a really poor topic of conversation for him after 2nd grade, but that HP as a topic will see him all the way through high school. (I’m not sure I explained that well.) ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/27 "2004-11-27T23:30:25Z")
Hehe, of course I understand. I wish my mother would be as understanding as you are. She thinks the Harry Potter books are for children and that I only watch the movies because I’m a fifteen-year-old schoolgirl who likes to drool over hot guys (i.e. Daniel Radcliffe 😉 ) Honestly, she’s a nightmare!! 😛 For some reason, I have this need to include at least two smileys in my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/28 "2004-11-28T01:03:40Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > I have yet to research Wicca and see for myself. If you do get around to researching Wicca, you will be amused to learn that it’s basically mystical christianity with a slightly different vocabulary, and rituals that are borrowed from Freemasonry by way of the Golden Dawn. (Not that any of that is likely convince your friends and teachers that it’s any less evil.) The Wiccan festivals largely correspond to traditional Christian festivals, and share their meanings. Yule for Christmas, Spring Equinox for Easter, etc. To be fair though, even though Christians have celebrated festivals that correspond to Beltain and Samhain, they’ve always been controversial with some folks. But hey, Christmas was only grudgingly accepted as an adaptation of a prechristian festival, after a long period in which folks tried to suppress it as a wicked pagan holiday. ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/29 "2004-11-28T01:08:48Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > If you do get around to researching Wicca, you will be amused to learn that it’s basically mystical christianity with a slightly different vocabulary, and rituals that are borrowed from Freemasonry by way of the Golden Dawn. Well, of course it’s not going to convince them that’s not evil, but I’m more interested in Wicca now that you’ve told me this. I really should get to researching instead of working on my science project. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/30 "2004-11-28T01:18:23Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > If you do get around to researching Wicca, you will be amused to learn that it’s basically mystical christianity with a slightly different vocabulary, and rituals that are borrowed from Freemasonry by way of the Golden Dawn. (Not that any of that is likely convince your friends and teachers that it’s any less evil.) By mystical christianity do you refer to Gnosticism? And, from what I’ve learned of Wicca, I’d think it’s a bit more accurate to say it’s borrowed both ritual and substance from the G.’.D.’. After all, the G.’.D.’. was associated with freemasonry in the same manner that the O.’.T.’.O.’. was… And while “Do as thou wilt as long as it harms none” can be traced, roundabout, to Gnosticism it would probably be a more direct theoretical link to Crowley’s “Do as thou wilt.” ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/31 "2004-11-28T01:19:27Z")
One question: Is Harry Potter saved? ---
**Author:** ![dare\_devil007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@dare\_devil007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dare_devil007)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/32 "2004-11-28T01:30:35Z")
“Saved”? Saved as in believing in Jesus Christ and that He died on the cross for our sins and that we are to follow the commandments of God the Father? I’ve never considered that before. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/33 "2004-11-28T01:50:48Z")
> [@dare\_devil007\_](#): > > My ignorant “friend”, who’s only watched the first movie, which is only a very small part of the entire Harry Potter story, began to tell me how JKR got the spells in Harry Potter from an actual witchcraft book! > > … > > There’s another friend of mine, who’s a strong Christian. She also told me that JKR got the spells from an actual witchcraft book and how Harry Potter is a withcraft manual and that more and more people are becoming wiccans because of Harry Potter. It might be amusing to ask them what this “witchcraft book” is that Rowling cribbed from. I’m sure good Christians like them would never have read such a thing (although that does make one wonder how any good Christian ever discovered the alleged connection), but if they’re so all-fired certain about it they should at least have a _title_, right? I wonder if they think it’s the **Necronomicon**? 😉 > [@](#): > > _Nowhere in Harry Potter does it suggest directly or even indirectly that people should become witches and wizards._ You might point out to them that in the world depicted by Rowling, people _can’t_ become witches and wizards. Either you’re born one or you’re not. I suppose Harry could give up magic if he wanted to, but there’s apparently no way for a Muggle to learn to cast spells. > [@](#): > > _Geez. And an old friend of mine is a Wiccan and a Harry Potter fan, so I asked her about both. And she told me that Harry Potter is not at all similar to Wicca. She didn’t become a Wiccan because of Harry Potter, BTW. I have yet to research Wicca and see for myself._ She’s right. As I’m sure you’ve noticed, there’s no religious element to magic in the **HP** world. Magic users in the books treat it more like a science, and no faith in anything but one’s own abilities is required. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/34 "2004-11-28T04:23:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > By mystical christianity do you refer to Gnosticism? In a general way, yup. > [@](#): > > And, from what I’ve learned of Wicca, I’d think it’s a bit more accurate to say it’s borrowed both ritual and substance from the G.’.D.’. I think most of the substance can be found in the ritual. > [@](#): > > After all, the G.’.D.’. was associated with freemasonry in the same manner that the O.’.T.’.O.’. was… > And while “Do as thou wilt as long as it harms none” can be traced, roundabout, to Gnosticism it would probably be a more direct theoretical link to Crowley’s “Do as thou wilt.” Ayuh. I think of them as vehicles. Whether you choose a Mercury, a Chrysler, a Mazda, or whatever, once you get “under the hood,” it’s pretty clear that the basic principles are all the same. S’all about converting petroleum into progress, and they’ll all get you where you’re going in the end. While we’re on the subject of names and forms, Mister **FinnAgain** , your namesake puts me in the mind of Dionysus, John Barleycorn, and that other fella with the buzz in his blood. How’s that old [drinking song](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod) go, again? “Scatter your whiskey ‘round like blazes, Thunderin’ Jesus, d’ya think I’m _dead?_” Who carries a [hod](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod) to rise in the world, anyway? 😉 But, yaghags hogwarts and arrahquinonthiance, it’s the muddest thick that was ever heard dump since Eggsmather got smothered in the plap of the pfan. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/35 "2004-11-28T04:29:36Z")
[drinking song](http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/Finnegans_Wake.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/36 "2004-11-28T04:47:33Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > In a general way, yup. I’m curious as to what more specific way you might’ve had in mind. The christians (and to an extent Jews and Greeks) had the Gnostics, the Muslims had the Sufis, and the Jews also had the Kabbalists. The interplay between them always fascinates me, but I was unaware of any strain of mystic christianity that wasn’t gnostic in origin. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I think most of the substance can be found in the ritual. I would agree that a good deal can be, but I also think that a lot of the philosophy behind wicca deviates from the philosphy-behind-the-ritual. For instance, I’ve heard of gatherings opened with “As above, so below.” followed by the response “So mote it be.” that then betray not so much as a nod towards hermeticism. Likewise using G.’.D.’. rituatls designed to bring out the Hidden God and then praying to an external power (and meaning it). > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I think of them as vehicles. Whether you choose a Mercury, a Chrysler, a Mazda, or whatever, once you get “under the hood,” it’s pretty clear that the basic principles are all the same. S’all about converting petroleum into progress, and they’ll all get you where you’re going in the end. I would agree on that as well. However, most of the so called Illuminated schools sought, as is my undestanding, to bring the Adept into greater harmony with Universe via the formulae of “As above so below” and “Solve et coagula.” Wicca, from what I’ve seen, is often simply an attempt to take Christian practices and place different masks over them without making a substantive change in the goals. YMMV. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > While we’re on the subject of names and forms, Mister **FinnAgain** , your namesake puts me in the mind of Dionysus, John Barleycorn, and that other fella with the buzz in his blood. ~grins~ As well it should. > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Who carries a [hod](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hod) to rise in the world, anyway? Hod is quite splendid, but I prefer seeing Kether in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/37 "2004-11-28T05:41:22Z")
It’s probably going to be hard to continue this hijack much further without mystifying or just plain annoying the muggles, but… > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m curious as to what more specific way you might’ve had in mind. The christians (and to an extent Jews and Greeks) had the Gnostics, the Muslims had the Sufis, and the Jews also had the Kabbalists. The interplay between them always fascinates me, but I was unaware of any strain of mystic christianity that wasn’t gnostic in origin. By general, I mean more of a small-g (or accidental) gnostic or mystic christianity of the sort that sometimes spontaneously arises without initiation into a mystery school. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I would agree that a good deal can be, but I also think that a lot of the philosophy behind wicca deviates from the philosphy-behind-the-ritual. For instance, I’ve heard of gatherings opened with “As above, so below.” followed by the response “So mote it be.” that then betray not so much as a nod towards hermeticism. I haven’t heard of such rituals, but I shouldn’t be surprised to learn of them. I have a certain lunatic squinty sight that allows me to see the hermetic influence in [_everything_](http://groups.google.ca/groups?th=38df51bd82a3dd07&seekm=3cbe695e.132931997%40news.telus.net#link8), though. (If you get through that, I’ll buy you a beer and regale you with my exegesis on the esoteric _Futurama_. ;)) I am hesitant to make denigrating judgements about anyone’s chosen path, but as all things are shadows, Wicca sometimes strikes me as a shadow of shadow. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/38 "2004-11-28T05:52:49Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I (If you get through that, I’ll buy you a beer and regale you with my exegesis on the esoteric _Futurama_. ;)) My friend, you owe me a beer. And I would like to learn more about the dynamic between Fry and Leila as seen by a fellow traveler. 😉 > [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I am hesitant to make denigrating judgements about anyone’s chosen path, but as all things are shadows, Wicca sometimes strikes me as a shadow of shadow. I probably should be more hesitant. I will take your example to heart. Oh, and: Fnord. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/39 "2004-11-28T06:55:44Z")
The main problem with Wicca is that it’s nowherenear as ancient as many of its practitiners seem to believe. That and it seems to encourage people to run around naked in the woods. At least Harry has the good sense not to drop his drawers and start dancing around with a ceremonial knife everytime the gang has to go into the FForest. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895/40 "2004-11-28T07:02:07Z")
Now that’d be a trip. “The next HP book in which Harry goes skyclad and engages in a tantric workshop.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-all-those-who-say-harry-potter-is-evil-warning-whininess/276895.md?page=3)