# I Pit Amazing Grace Baptist Church **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908 "2009-10-23T22:34:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/341 "2009-11-02T01:13:46Z")
I meant those who believe people can be saved through works alone without any faith (which certainly isn’t the position of the Catholics) which many indvidual Protestants hold and which many churches fail to excommunicate their members for. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/342 "2009-11-02T02:17:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant those who believe people can be saved through works alone without any faith (which certainly isn’t the position of the Catholics) which many indvidual Protestants hold and which many churches fail to excommunicate their members for. I know we’re not in GD, but…cite? Do you have any actual evidence of this stance or are you just parroting the paranoid ravings of the usual right-wing churches? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/343 "2009-11-02T02:58:10Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I know we’re not in GD, but…cite? Do you have any actual evidence of this stance or are you just parroting the paranoid ravings of the usual right-wing churches? Ditto. I’ve studied pretty much all the major Protestant religions and I don’t know of a single solitary one that preach salvation by works alone. That in fact is why they’re Christian rather than just generic “Houses of Worship”. A mini-rant hijack on the “Come over here and stop persecuting me!” mentality: I was just talking to some friends who were at Atlanta Pride this weekend (Atlanta’s gay pride was bumped from early summer to Halloween this year due to something to do with the Piedmont Park schedule and maintenance) and they were telling me about the protesters. While there are always protesters at these things they’re usually just a few sad douchebags with signs- not even Phelpsian, just Bible verses or sometimes sincere “Repent- God Still Loves You” type signs. This year they had megaphones and were preaching sermons. One stood outside OutWrite (an Atlanta gay bookstore/gay landmark in the heart of the ghaytto) and another at the coffee house across the busy intersection from it and preached about the hypocrisy of the gays: “You want equal rights under the law but you’d see churches padlocked if you could! You call for love from Christians and yet you have no respect for Christians!” yadda blah. While I’ll admit he’s pegged me pretty much accurately (which is amazing since I wasn’t even there) the grossly broad brush is astounding- there are MANY gay Christians and Jews and other people of faith and I’m not even counting the ‘heretical’ liberal sects; I know at least as many gays who have deep religious faith as I do who are fagnostics. Then the protesters actually went on about “You preach tolerance, but you’re the least tolerant people on Earth!” Is irony rendered invisible by faith alone or does it need stupidity? He’s talking about how intolerant gays are… on a megaphone. At a Gay Pride rally. Gays have pride rallies one (1) day per year in Atlanta (I’m not counting the Dolly Parton concerts as those are inside and don’t have floats). If a group of gays disrupted this guy’s church on just one of his fifty-two (52) Sunday services or fish-fries or Wednesday Night Meet’n’Judge or whatever by standing outside the church on public property and calling them bigoted dumbasses with a megaphone (disrupting the electric guitar riff to the Jesus powerpoint) it would make national news and there’d probably be violence. You have 52 Sunday mornings per year and however many other times you meet to read Chick tracts and watch Glenn Beck and pretend he’s not all that Mormony and you won’t allow gays to have 1 (and this is NOT an area of town where Baptists and other Fundies are apt to be disturbed on a Saturday afternoon) and you decry gays for intolerance. These are the sons/daughters and clones of the same asswipes who’d have yelled “Might I suggest using your night club officer?” while Rosa Parks was being hauled away but who then had a moment of silence when she died without a moment of irony. And of course in private mention “of course you know the whole thing was staged” seconds later. They’re the ones who can sink 12 cultural milestones with a single soundbyte. I hate these fuckers and would gladly contribute a 2 way\* U-Haul and a handtruck if they ever decide to join the “move to South Carolina and make it a Fundie homeland?” (a notion that comes up from time to time but never seems to get any actual movement). _2_ way so that one way will transport the Fundie colonists and the return trip can bring the decent people moving away from them.\* ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/344 "2009-11-02T03:10:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I don’t like pomegranates. They gel their seeds… Not to mention for every seed you eat, you have to spend a month down in the underworld. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/345 "2009-11-02T12:49:16Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > That’s a puzzle, all right. An example: Jesus knew what was going to happen to Him (“Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.” Matthew 20:18). > > He even knew who was going to betray Him (“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.” John 6:70 & 13:21; “He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.” John 13:26, Mark 14:20), > > but He had also already promised all twelve of His disciples a throne beside His in heaven (“Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 9:28, Luke 22:30). > > Jesus also knew that the one who betrayed him would suffer (“but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24, Mark 14:21). > > Poor Judas. Did he have a choice? No, not if Jesus knew this all was going to happen. Judas was just the one who drew the short cosmic straw. And, yes, he suffered for it (he hanged himself), but he got the same reward (a throne) as the other disciples (unless Jesus was mistaken, or lying :eek:). > > Jesus also said, “It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! [= It is impossible to avoid all stumbling blocks, but woe to the one who provides them.]” Luke 17:1. > > Just who is putting these stumbling blocks out there? God, who created Lucifer and Hitler and who presumably knew what they were going to do? Or were they mistakes? If God does not make mistakes, then the evil people of the world, who perpetrate evil and encourage others to do evil were created on purpose. Where does that leave us? He also said. “I will come in My father’s glory with my angels and there are some standing here who will not see death until this has been accomplished” And"This generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished". The stars would fall, the sun no longer give it’s light, and the moon turn to blood, Being God He didn’t know the only star near earth was our sun and if the sun came any closer to earth earth would burn up, so what earth would the meek inherit? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/346 "2009-11-02T12:56:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > God is ultimately responsible for everything, but this is a very trivial understanding, not very important or noteworthy. > > Yes, that damned Jesus getting God to withdraw his heavenly hand. Yes, that God, who supposedily created a flawed product, and knew before hand it was flawed is indeed responsible, just as much as a human father who if he could know ahead of time a child he would have would know for certain was going to be evil would be responsible. You can dismiss if if you wish I have no quarrell with you differing with me. Being human we can only judge with human understanding. Oh, and Jesus was not yet born when God sealed the women’s wombs. That is OT times. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/347 "2009-11-02T13:18:11Z")
I just want to say **Sampiro** made some excellent points there - it has never occurred to me to ask why nobody protests church services, and it would strike me as a horrible thing to do. But I can’t tell you why it’s any different than idiots protesting a gay rally. I also think that’s a horrible thing to do, but within the protester’s rights. That’s really something to think about. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/348 "2009-11-02T14:19:36Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I just want to say **Sampiro** made some excellent points there - it has never occurred to me to ask why nobody protests church services, and it would strike me as a horrible thing to do. But I can’t tell you why it’s any different than idiots protesting a gay rally. I also think that’s a horrible thing to do, but within the protester’s rights. > > That’s really something to think about. When I was a kid, I always wanted Marilyn Manson to bring his fans to protest the churches that protested his shows. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/349 "2009-11-02T17:49:07Z")
> [@bup](#): > > The cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with you being an atheist who was raised Catholic. It was your claim we should trust you because you spent almost twenty years in Catholic school. At the same time, you can’t be held responsible for knowing the bible \*because \*you’re an atheist and can only deal with physical artifact bibles. There’s no dissonance here if you listen to what I’m actually saying. I was taught a certain thing in many, many years of school (that Jesus “reset” the old rules), but I don’t have specific cites at hand because the branch of Christianity that taught me doesn’t have the same focus on Biblical literalism as some other sects (i.e., the ones who produce people who can give you chapter and verse for pretty much any quote you can think of). While I was unable to pull out a string of \*\*textual \*\*evidence because I didn’t have a Bible I could skim through, I \*\*was \*\*able to point to several old rules (most of Leviticus, such as the mixed-fabrics thing, working on the Sabbath, circumcision) that continue to be followed by Jews but that Christians disregard. Which you seem to conveniently be ignoring. > [@](#): > > You’re kind of testy, aren’t you? The willfully ignorant make me all tetchy. It’s a personal flaw. > [@mswas](#): > > **Shot From Guns** The point is, if you can post on the SDMB you DO have a bible handy. Ah, but I specified that I need a Bible **to skim through** , because, shockingly, it’s very hard to do passage searches for abstract concepts instead of specific words. So, if I recall a passage in general terms, I can easily search for it and then cite it (as I have done, IIRC, in this very thread), but if I’m trying to prove a broader theme (“Jesus negated a bunch of old cultural laws”), \*\*that \*\*will require sitting down with a physical text that I can quickly skim through. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/350 "2009-11-02T18:07:37Z")
You can look through the bible page by page online as well. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/351 "2009-11-02T18:28:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The willfully ignorant make me all tetchy. It’s a personal flaw. Did you at least like the guitar playing? > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > There’s no dissonance here if you listen to what I’m actually saying. I was taught a certain thing in many, many years of school (that Jesus “reset” the old rules), but I don’t have specific cites at hand because the branch of Christianity that taught me doesn’t have the same focus on Biblical literalism as some other sects (i.e., the ones who produce people who can give you chapter and verse for pretty much any quote you can think of). Whatever - your cite was an appeal to (your own) authority, followed by begging off being held accountable to…well, anything, as I read it. Maybe I did misunderstand the expertise you claim. What does your nearly twenty years of Catholic school make you qualified to speak about? > [@](#): > > While I was unable to pull out a string of \*\*textual \*\*evidence because I didn’t have a Bible I could skim through, I \*\*was \*\*able to point to several old rules (most of Leviticus, such as the mixed-fabrics thing, working on the Sabbath, circumcision) that continue to be followed by Jews but that Christians disregard. Which you seem to conveniently be ignoring. Nobody’s disputing that Christianity disregards much of Jewish law. You said it was _Jesus_ done did that though, and what everybody keeps telling you is it weren’t _Jesus_, honey. It was Peter and Paul and other people who wrote the books of the New Testament that come after the gospels. Jesus _did say_ that everything flows down from the commandment to love each other, and that therefore when the law is in contention with the higher law to love each other, do the common sense thing and violate the law. But he never said \*ignore \*the law. In fact, he explicitly said to keep it. You know who else does that? Jews. Orthodox Jews recognize you still need doctors and fire fighters and stuff like that on Saturday, and they’ll work those days without their rabbi giving them shit for it. Have you found a physical artifact bible yet? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/352 "2009-11-02T18:28:59Z")
Either you read incredibly slowly, or you’re being disingenuous. Reading (a) on a screen where (a) you have to wait for each page to load and © scroll down is not remotely comparable to having a physical book in your hand. The latter is conducive to quick and easy skimming; the former is not. ETA: That was as **mswas**. @ **bup** : I was going to pull out my Bible and skim through this weekend, but then I forgot + Halloween revelries = I failed. I actually already sent myself an email at home to remember to do it sometime this week, hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/353 "2009-11-02T18:36:58Z")
Also, I remind you yet again: this is the fucking Pit, which means I can talk out of my ass if I damn well please, and thumb my nose at you while I do it. And yet again, I remind you that you’re perfectly within your rights to ignore me for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/354 "2009-11-02T20:45:24Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Either you read incredibly slowly, or you’re being disingenuous. > > Reading (a) on a screen where (a) you have to wait for each page to load and (c) scroll down is not remotely comparable to having a physical book in your hand. The latter is conducive to quick and easy skimming; the former is not. > > ETA: That was as **mswas**. I read slow but you can’t skim the text of the bible online. Oookkaay. What kind of lazy-ass hamsters do you employ where a page of text loads too slow to skim it? > [@](#): > > Also, I remind you yet again: this is the fucking Pit, which means I can talk out of my ass if I damn well please, and thumb my nose at you while I do it. And yet again, I remind you that you’re perfectly within your rights to ignore me for doing so. This is the real answer. ‘I’m too lazy to look it up and if you don’t like it, bite me.’ ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/355 "2009-11-02T21:34:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I read slow but you can’t skim the text of the bible online. Oookkaay. > > What kind of lazy-ass hamsters do you employ where a page of text loads too slow to skim it? It’s not that the page loads too slowly to skim–it’s that the skimming is broken up by constantly having to scroll down and load new pages. So it’s “read, scroll, read, scroll, read, scroll, click for next page, wait, then repeat,” versus, “read read read read read down left page, read read read read read down right page, flip to next pair of pages and repeat.” > [@](#): > > This is the real answer. ‘I’m too lazy to look it up and if you don’t like it, bite me.’ Except I \*\*do \*\*actually want to look it up, because while the point remains that the Catholic Church teaches a certain thing, I’m curious to see if it’s backed up scripturally. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/356 "2009-11-02T22:39:45Z")
**mswas** - can you tell she secretly wants us? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/357 "2009-11-03T16:35:54Z")
Wait, secretly? And here I thought the bustier was a dead giveaway. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/358 "2009-11-04T13:47:18Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > There’s no dissonance here if you listen to what I’m actually saying. I was taught a certain thing in many, many years of school (that Jesus “reset” the old rules), but I don’t have specific cites at hand because the branch of Christianity that taught me doesn’t have the same focus on Biblical literalism as some other sects (i.e., the ones who produce people who can give you chapter and verse for pretty much any quote you can think of). > > While I was unable to pull out a string of \*\*textual \*\*evidence because I didn’t have a Bible I could skim through, I \*\*was \*\*able to point to several old rules (most of Leviticus, such as the mixed-fabrics thing, working on the Sabbath, circumcision) that continue to be followed by Jews but that Christians disregard. Which you seem to conveniently be ignoring. > > The willfully ignorant make me all tetchy. It’s a personal flaw. > > Ah, but I specified that I need a Bible **to skim through** , because, shockingly, it’s very hard to do passage searches for abstract concepts instead of specific words. So, if I recall a passage in general terms, I can easily search for it and then cite it (as I have done, IIRC, in this very thread), but if I’m trying to prove a broader theme (“Jesus negated a bunch of old cultural laws”), \*\*that \*\*will require sitting down with a physical text that I can quickly skim through. I believe it is still the belief (or teaching) of the RCC that the Pope is the only one who can translate the Bible’s meaning. Given this right by Jesus, who was said to appoint Peter (and his decendent Popes) when he is quoted as saying Peter was the rock on which He built His church, and what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. This gave Peter and other Popes the right to change or make laws as they were supposed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to do. ---
**Author:** ![StoutHearted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@StoutHearted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StoutHearted)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/359 "2009-11-04T15:37:21Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am completely free to think what is sin and what is not. > > Also while it was a human (Paul) who wrote the Corinthians he certainly was inspired by God and not superseded unlike Mosaic Law. How convenient that you only need to follow part of the Bible and ignore the rest, such as the Leviticus laws that the Jewish Orthodox still keep. Do you understand that you lose all credibility by saying that you don’t need to follow some parts of the Bible while saying that you must pay strict heed to one sentence of Paul’s? Also, Paul contradicts himself many times in his letters. He clearly was a man who changed his opinions over time. In one letter, he condemns women who preach. Later, he commends a female preacher named Phoebe. My point is, that Paul was simply a man with human foibles. Divinely inspired or not, he didn’t always get it right, as evident by his changing views through time. The fact that you would honor one line from one letter of his over the teachings of Jesus, or place this line above the actual laws handed down by God (Mosaic law) is quite perplexing and a little frightening. Just who exactly is your God? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/360 "2009-11-04T16:17:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I believe it is still the belief (or teaching) of the RCC that the Pope is the only one who can translate the Bible’s meaning. Given this right by Jesus, who was said to appoint Peter (and his decendent Popes) when he is quoted as saying Peter was the rock on which He built His church, and what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. This gave Peter and other Popes the right to change or make laws as they were supposed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to do. Not the \*\*only \*\*one, certainly–there are plenty of Catholic theologans out there. But definitely the “last word,” so to speak, on anything under discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908.md?page=19)