# I Pit Amazing Grace Baptist Church **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908 "2009-10-23T22:34:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/121 "2009-10-26T12:34:53Z")
> [@Juliana](#): > > (snip) Personally, I choose to follow Jesus, not Paul. I agree with this. I was constantly bamboozled by the NT and who said what until I got a terrific resource: _From Jesus to You: The Words of Jesus Christ_ ([www.fromjesustoyou.com](http://www.fromjesustoyou.com)). I was blown away. There are a ton of things I didn’t know Jesus said, and a lot of things that he did NOT say (I think a lot of people confuse Jesus with Paul, Shakespeare, Ben Franklin and Rush Limbaugh). I’d rather go with what Jesus is reported to have actually said. I know a LOT of “Christians” who overtly ignore what Jesus actually said to justify their own prejudices and actions. For example, Jesus never told anyone to protest or scream at sinners or call anyone evil names or deny them civil rights. His harshest words were for the scribes and Pharisees. He ate dinner with sinners, much to those religious leaders’ chagrin! And what He said to his disciples was, “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them.” Mark 6:10-11. That’s right - just walk away. Don’t beat them over the head, don’t rag on them endlessly, don’t try to force your beliefs onto them! Wow! Who knew? And I do not understand “Christian” churches who cheerfully allow adulterers, liars, cheats, thieves, and divorced people (about which Jesus had some very specific things to say) to marry in their sanctuary, that so vehemently and loudly rail against allowing homosexuals to marry in civil ceremonies. Oh, come on - atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists can get legally married and they don’t even believe in Jesus. And gay people who DO believe in Jesus cannot? I really just don’t get it. And I don’t think it’s very Jesus-like at all. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/122 "2009-10-26T12:42:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Even if that was true (there’s not OT law that says Thou Shalt Be Brave or It is Abomination) it doesn’t apply to Christians anymore as it’s been superseded by Jesus and the New Covenent. > > And I’m not harmless and loving because…? > Have you noticed that it’s always non-religious folks who say this bit about only fundamentalists and Evangelicals being sent to Hell? :dubious: Also if I think say masturbating was a sin does that mean I hate all masturbators and am a bigot? No, just because I think homosexuality is a sin doesn’t mean I’m a bigot; I’m opposed to Don’t Ask Don’t Tell for instance. > So unless you become a moral relativist, universalist, ultra-liberal Christian I’m a fundie despite the fact that virtually all Christians before 1965 and the vast majority of Christians to-day would agree with me. > > Thank you for your comment. > > Saying that it wasn’t inspired by God is also belief as unless there is testimony by Paul that says “God didn’t inspire this”. Paul was a human being who saw the advantages of being in a new religion, In those days they thought that the world was coming to an end, as the writer quotes Jesus as saying, those standing there would not see death until he came in His glory with his angels,That did not happen, there are no 2,000+ year old men living now. When you believe in the writings of the Bible or any writings you are believing in a human or humans, not God. Paul cannot be any more right than anyother human. His word is no better. It is a matter of belief not fact. One can prove that who ever wrote the Bible was human and that human’s decided what was the word of God, what was inspired, etc. there is no proof tht Paul and the other writers were not just conning the people who couldn’t read or write 2,000 + years ago. For 300 years there was no New Testement ,any writings such as those of Thomas (an Apostle of Jesus) were thrown out and many writings were destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/123 "2009-10-26T12:46:30Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > I agree with this. I was constantly bamboozled by the NT and who said what until I got a terrific resource: _From Jesus to You: The Words of Jesus Christ_ ([www.fromjesustoyou.com](http://www.fromjesustoyou.com)). I was blown away. There are a ton of things I didn’t know Jesus said, and a lot of things that he did NOT say (I think a lot of people confuse Jesus with Paul, Shakespeare, Ben Franklin and Rush Limbaugh). > > I’d rather go with what Jesus is reported to have actually said. I know a LOT of “Christians” who overtly ignore what Jesus actually said to justify their own prejudices and actions. > > For example, Jesus never told anyone to protest or scream at sinners or call anyone evil names or deny them civil rights. His harshest words were for the scribes and Pharisees. He ate dinner with sinners, much to those religious leaders’ chagrin! And what He said to his disciples was, “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them.” Mark 6:10-11. That’s right - just walk away. Don’t beat them over the head, don’t rag on them endlessly, don’t try to force your beliefs onto them! Wow! Who knew? > > And I do not understand “Christian” churches who cheerfully allow adulterers, liars, cheats, thieves, and divorced people (about which Jesus had some very specific things to say) to marry in their sanctuary, that so vehemently and loudly rail against allowing homosexuals to marry in civil ceremonies. Oh, come on - atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists can get legally married and they don’t even believe in Jesus. And gay people who DO believe in Jesus cannot? I really just don’t get it. And I don’t think it’s very Jesus-like at all. > > Just my two cents. If you read the Old Testament, you will see that God choose Murderers and Adulters to lead His people, Moses and David as an example. (If a person believes they were chose by God)! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/124 "2009-10-26T14:14:33Z")
I always wonder why the fundies never go after divorced people, which the Bible has a lot to say about. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/125 "2009-10-26T14:25:28Z")
Luckily, I don’t give a damn what the bible does or doesn’t say, so I can put the Pitter and the Pittee in the same boat. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/126 "2009-10-26T14:45:40Z")
I think Curtis just needs to rub one out every once in a while, maybe his world-view will swing back around to normal. Christ man, a 13 year old who \*doesn’t \*masturbate? Has Ripley’s been notified yet? ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/127 "2009-10-26T15:03:37Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I always wonder why the fundies never go after divorced people, which the Bible has a lot to say about. Religion is “pick and choose.” That’s the beauty part. None of it is based on fact and all of it is unproven and unprovable. It’s your choice! If you don’t like Church A’s Requirement X, you can go down the street to Church B that doesn’t require X. If all of that particular religion requires X, you can change religions. Or be non-religious. You can wake up today and choose to be an entirely different religion from what you were yesterday! You can worship your ancestors or an elephant! And if you don’t like ANY of the religions available, feel free to reject them all and start your own! Cool, no? ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/128 "2009-10-26T15:04:56Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I always wonder why the fundies never go after divorced people, which the Bible has a lot to say about. Oh, they do (at least some do). They’re just not as public about it, I suspect because they realize that it’s a losing cause in the public forum. Twenty-ish years ago my wife was a twice-divorced mother of two looking for a church. She had been raised Southern Baptist, so gravitated toward the more conservative congregations in the area (and in Wheaton, IL there’s plenty to choose from). In a couple it was made quite clear, in a barely polite manner, that she was not welcome. A couple of others were “welcoming” but she would have to attend a class for people like her, I guess to cleanse her or some such thing, before she’d really be accepted (and I suspect even after that she and her children-born-of-sin would only be tolerated). So, yeah, there’s plenty of damnation available for the divorced. It’s just a quieter condemnation than some of the others. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/129 "2009-10-26T15:23:53Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > And I do not understand “Christian” churches who cheerfully allow adulterers, liars, cheats, thieves, and divorced people (about which Jesus had some very specific things to say) to marry in their sanctuary, that so vehemently and loudly rail against allowing homosexuals to marry in civil ceremonies. Oh, come on - atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists can get legally married and they don’t even believe in Jesus. And gay people who DO believe in Jesus cannot? I really just don’t get it. And I don’t think it’s very Jesus-like at all. Agreed with your entire post. I couldn’t have put it any better. > [@Zsofia](#): > > I always wonder why the fundies never go after divorced people, which the Bible has a lot to say about. I think they’re finally beginning to realize that it doesn’t do any good, and they lose members because of this. My first pastor divorced his wife on “Biblical grounds” (she stepped out on him) and he was fine to continue as pastor. But when he dared to remarry, the church decided he was no longer fit to serve as pastor and voted him out. That totally disgusted me, and I was 12 years old at the time. I left that church shortly thereafter. In my mind, them voting him out said one of two things: either it doesn’t matter whose fault it was, cause we’re holding it against you: or God may forgive, but we sure don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/130 "2009-10-26T15:54:18Z")
> [@Juliana](#): > > My first pastor divorced his wife on “Biblical grounds” (she stepped out on him) and he was fine to continue as pastor. But when he dared to remarry, the church decided he was no longer fit to serve as pastor and voted him out. This type of response is most consistent with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the bible about divorce and remarriage. He was opposed to it, quite explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/131 "2009-10-26T15:59:26Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am not a Jesus Freak! I am just a Christian who’s trying to follow what I believe is truth and you know what, the vast majority of conservative and Evangelical Christians agree with the idea that homosexuality is a sin. If you believe in god, who do you think made gays? Are you questioning gods creations selectively? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/132 "2009-10-26T16:15:37Z")
No, he’s just ignoring the fairly well-established modern medical science which establishes that homosexuality is innate rather than a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/133 "2009-10-26T16:18:46Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > This type of response is most consistent with what Jesus is quoted to have said in the bible about divorce and remarriage. He was opposed to it, quite explicitly. Matthew 5:31-32: “31”: It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: “32”: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matthew 19: 7-9: “7”: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? “8”: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. “9”: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. In his case, it was for “fornication” - ergo, in my belief, and how I interpret the Bible, it was the wrong thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/134 "2009-10-26T16:44:17Z")
Please say; “It’s a choice”. Which could mean anyone of us could ‘choose’ to be gay. Being straight wasn’t a choice for me. Was/is it a choice for you? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/135 "2009-10-26T17:15:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Paul was a human being who saw the advantages of being in a new religion, In those days they thought that the world was coming to an end, as the writer quotes Jesus as saying, those standing there would not see death until he came in His glory with his angels,That did not happen, there are no 2,000+ year old men living now. [Are you absolutely certain of that?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2000yo.jpg) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/136 "2009-10-26T17:33:29Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Been there. Grand Ole Opry has been in business since 1927. Rock and Roll only dates back to the 50s. Yes, and Country music today resembles Rock and Roll more than it resembles the 1927 Opry sound. Regardless, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, June Carter, etc… were all part of a scene. Country music’s resurgence as a pop genre occurred when it started to become as influenced by Southern Rock as it was by that old western style. The Outlaw Country style went hand in hand with the ascendance of Rock and Roll. [Garth Brooks - The Thunder Rolls](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siWmOSByIOg) You’re telling me this isn’t Rock and Roll? What about this? [Eagles - Hotel California](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zT3LzXzhJo) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/137 "2009-10-26T17:49:07Z")
> [@Juliana](#): > > In his case, it was for “fornication” - ergo, in my belief, and how I interpret the Bible, it was the wrong thing to do. Ah, but in Mark (10.11-12) and Luke (16.18) (and also Corinthians 7.10-11, but that wasn’t quoting Jesus) the ban on divorce and remarriage is absolute. I’m not the best person to argue this, as I don’t believe it’s the word of god anyway. But there one sees people interpreting the bible differently, and able to justify it with multiple scriptural cites. [http://www.marriagedivorce.com/rudvin.pdf](http://www.marriagedivorce.com/rudvin.pdf) has some cites and arguments on the whole issue. But they’re pretty much dead set against remarriage after divorce for any reason. Also against divorce. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/138 "2009-10-26T17:54:37Z")
I agree with your point, but… are you citing the Eagles as an example of a country band? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/139 "2009-10-26T17:59:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I agree with your point, but… are you citing the Eagles as an example of a country band? 😕 Umm no. I was pointing out a famous country song that is very reminiscent of a famous rock and roll song. Though I think the Eagles play mostly with country bands these days. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908/140 "2009-10-26T18:00:36Z")
**mswas** , I don’t get why you’re fighting this musical argument completely against the grain. How can Country music, which existed for years before nary a pelvis was swiveled, be a subset of Rock n Roll? Just based on what we know from the passage of time, it’s impossible. Rock n Roll itself is a subset of Blues. Country and Rock did meld later on into Country Rock (Skynyrd, Eagles, Garth Brooks), but that hardly makes one a subset of another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-amazing-grace-baptist-church/514908.md?page=8)