# I pit Andrea Yates **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411 "2005-01-06T16:59:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/21 "2005-01-06T20:31:44Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’ve always felt that the punishment for perjury should be directly proportional to the crime being tried when the perjury occurred. Perjury during a capital murder trial? Damn, you’re going away for a long time! I like this idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/22 "2005-01-06T20:36:57Z")
A few important points noones mentioned: Dr. Dietz’s testimony was mainly on Yates’ state of mind based on his interviews with her. He was a consultant to Law & Order and misremembered an episode (he didn’t claim to have written it as some here claimed), but that wasn’t a key part of his testimony. And he didn’t tie Yates’ actions to the show to demonstrate premeditation. He did give other examples in his testimony of her premeditation based on his interviews. These include her flat out saying that she knew she would do it the night before, and worked out the details so that she wouldn’t alarm her husband in the morning. Dr. Dietz told the prosecuters about his mistake before the penalty phase of the trial, and the prosecution told the jury - also before the penalty phase of the trial. The jury was told to disregard this Law & Order issue **before** they sentenced Yates. (but not before they convicted her). The prosecution provided many other psychiatric evaluations of Yates, all similar to Dietz’s. In the end, Yates deserves a new trial because it is perjury, and it is a capital case. But it’s not exactly like Dietz intentionally made something up for his own vanity or because he had it out for Yates. And it’s not like the jury didn’t know about it before they sentenced her. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/23 "2005-01-06T20:43:16Z")
I had to watch extensive interviews of her and other mothers who killed their kids in my psychiatry class (U of I has some famous infanticide expert who was among the experts that interviewed her, have forgotten his name although his protege was my professor) and I will say that the fact that she came off as much, much crazier than all the rest of them put together says a lot about how far into her psychosis she really is. And that was after she was arrested for the murders and heavily medicated with anti-psychotics. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/24 "2005-01-06T20:46:56Z")
These interviews being real psychiatric assessment interviews, which we were shown for educational purposes, of course. They weren’t like a 20/20 special and we were admonished not to talk about them outside the classroom much. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/25 "2005-01-06T21:02:29Z")
[Looks like Park Dietz has Law and Order on the brain.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002CX21K/103-0220677-6727875?v=glance) Scroll down to the list of dvd features. :dubious: and :dubious: and finally, :dubious: And as I preview, I see that **Bill H** already linked Park Dietz to Law and Order (I started to write this over two hours ago, and was distracted by work). Darn. Anyway, shouldn’t this connection mean that Dr. Dietz should, you know, actually watch Law and Order? Be more familiar with the show than the average person? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/26 "2005-01-06T21:08:44Z")
Ooh, here’s an interview of Dr. Dietz talking about the Yates case, and other interesting cases. [A: She, despite having nearly incapacitating symptoms of mental illness, nonetheless knew that her actions in killing the children were to be condemned by God and by society, and that they were illegal…The symptoms of mental illness that she had prior to her arrest largely weren’t documented, but I believed her when she told me that prior to her arrest she believed that cartoons and ads were talking to her from TV, and that there were cameras in her house watching her. Those delusions were known only to Andrea and Rusty Yates. They were never revealed to any of the people treating her. Even so, those beliefs don’t tie into the decision to kill the children.](http://readthehook.com/stories/2003/12/03/coverParkDietzTheKillingEx.html) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/27 "2005-01-06T21:13:04Z")
She may well be fucking crazy, but as long as she knew that her actions were illegal and did them anyway, she belongs in a prison. Course, if she gets the new trial, and is convicted, is it possible that she can get the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/28 "2005-01-06T21:16:07Z")
There was no free will involved. Not guilty. Let’s grow out of this stupid lust for vengence. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/29 "2005-01-06T21:23:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There was no free will involved. Not guilty. Let’s grow out of this stupid lust for vengence. I disagree: I think that she had free will, in that she could choose which actions she took, but that her perception of reality was so skewed it’s unreasonable to hold her to the same standards that we hold the non-psychotic to. I think our criminal justice system needs an overhaul with regards to how it deals with mental illness, at every level (how police deal with the mentally ill, the defenses available at trial, the amount of treatment–real treatment, not just one-size-fits-all long-acting anti-psychotics–available for the mentall-ill-but-not-totally-insane in prison, etc)… ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/30 "2005-01-06T21:23:56Z")
Frankly, I didn’t think she even met the Dusky standards for competency to stand trial at the point that she was interviewed. Based on all the (videotaped) psychiatric assessments I don’t think she understood the proceedings and there is no way in hell I would have wanted to be her lawyer because she didn’t seem terribly helpful-just twitchy. Maybe some other meds they put her on later made her competent, though. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/31 "2005-01-07T13:14:04Z")
This case shows the difference between legal insanity and mental illness. IF she knew what she was doing was wrong she is LEGALLY SANE, even IF it is obvious to everyone that she deserves sympathy and treatment in a psychiatric facility. Dietz lied, and should be punished, but he still believes that at the time she was legally sane, even if she was severely mentally ill. Medically, there is no sane/insane dichotomy, only degrees of mental wellness and illness. It just shows that the law, based on looking back at old cases and precedents, needs to catch up with current medical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/32 "2005-01-07T15:38:34Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > A few important points noones mentioned: > > Dr. Dietz’s testimony was mainly on Yates’ state of mind based on his interviews with her. He was a consultant to Law & Order and misremembered an episode (he didn’t claim to have written it as some here claimed), but that wasn’t a key part of his testimony. And he didn’t tie Yates’ actions to the show to demonstrate premeditation. He did give other examples in his testimony of her premeditation based on his interviews. These include her flat out saying that she knew she would do it the night before, and worked out the details so that she wouldn’t alarm her husband in the morning. > > Dr. Dietz told the prosecuters about his mistake before the penalty phase of the trial, and the prosecution told the jury - also before the penalty phase of the trial. The jury was told to disregard this Law & Order issue **before** they sentenced Yates. (but not before they convicted her). Cite? AFAIK, Dietz’s perjury was revealed by a screenwriter for L&O, who was covering the case as a reporter. And Dietz’s claim was that he had confused the case with others he was working on, not that he misremembered any episode(s). Others’ points about insanity vs. mental illness are well-taken, but there other tests for legal insanity – I don’t know if Texas law permits it, but there is precedent for insanity based on delusions of compulsion. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the name of the test, nor the exact wording. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/33 "2005-01-07T16:03:08Z")
Is that the M’Naghten “irresistible impulse test” you’re referring to?? It was discarded if I remember correctly. I don’t know about Texas law either but I thought the current vogue for insanity tests is GBMI (“guilty but mentally ill”). ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/34 "2005-01-07T18:48:36Z")
**Nametag** wrote > [@](#): > > Cite? AFAIK, Dietz’s perjury was revealed by a screenwriter for L&O, who was covering the case as a reporter. Hmmm, I swear I read it, and I even recall it was in the NY Times. But searching the site, I can’t find the article, and in fact I find this, that backs you up ([http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Yates-Psychiatrist.html](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Yates-Psychiatrist.html)) > [@](#): > > Dietz, who has been a technical consultant for the show, suggested the Texas mother got the idea from the episode, but a defense lawyer later said he was told by the show’s executive producer that no such episode ever aired. Also, I can’t find anything else to back my statement here in other sources. **Nametag** continued: > [@](#): > > And Dietz’s claim was that he had confused the case with others he was working on, not that he misremembered any episode(s). Not sure it’s a huge distinction. The LA times claims he confused it with another television series, not another case ([http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-yates7jan07,1,364865.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-yates7jan07,1,364865.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true)) > [@](#): > > The witness, forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz, testified that he had served as a consultant for the show, but has since said that he might have confused the story line with one from another television series. Also for reference for all, the disputed testimony is pretty small; here’s the entirety (from [http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/10582099.htm?1c](http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/10582099.htm?1c)) > [@](#): > > A transcript of the false trial testimony of Park Dietz, which led to Thursday’s reversal of murder convictions of Andrea Yates. > > Yates lawyer: "Now, you are, are you not, a consultant on the television program known as “Law & Order?” > > Dietz: “Two of them.” > > Lawyer: “OK. Did either one of those deal with postpartum depression or women’s mental health?” > > Dietz: “As a matter of fact, there was a show of a woman with postpartum depression who drowned her children in the bathtub and was found insane and it was aired shortly before the crime occurred.” > > * * * > > In closing arguments to the jury during the guilt-innocence phase, one of Yates’ lawyers referred to the Dietz testimony: > > “Or maybe even we heard some evidence that she saw some show on TV and knew she could drown her children and get away with it.” > > In the same round of closing arguments, a prosecutor referred to the testimony: > > “She watches ‘Law & Order’ regularly, she sees this program. There is a way out. She tells that to Dr. Dietz. A way out.” Another important note that I should’ve made earlier: This testimony was offered during cross-examination. I.e. it wasn’t something Dietz said in his “prepared” testimony that he delivered for the prosecution, rather he said it when the subject was raised by the defense. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/35 "2005-01-08T03:36:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Metacom\*\* said: > I disagree: I think that she had free will, in that she could choose which actions she took, but that her perception of reality was so skewed it’s unreasonable to hold her to the same standards that we hold the non-psychotic to. I think she had free will and enough touch with reality to know that drowning people is a crime at the time she chased down and killed those kids. She was quite obviously in touch enough with reality at the time to methodically drown them, chase down the oldest of them, and then call 911 after they were all dead. Sure, she was mentally ill, but that does not equal insanity. Jeffrey Dahmer was mentally ill. David Berkowitz was mentally ill. They were both also legally sane, just like Andrea Yates. Seems the only reason she gets so much sympathy is the misguided belief that a mother would ‘have to be’ insane to drown her kids. That’s a supposition I refuse to make. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/36 "2005-01-08T04:15:24Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I think she had free will and enough touch with reality to know that drowning people is a crime at the time she chased down and killed those kids. She was quite obviously in touch enough with reality at the time to methodically drown them, chase down the oldest of them, and then call 911 after they were all dead. > > Sure, she was mentally ill, but that does not equal insanity. Jeffrey Dahmer was mentally ill. David Berkowitz was mentally ill. They were both also legally sane, just like Andrea Yates. Seems the only reason she gets so much sympathy is the misguided belief that a mother would ‘have to be’ insane to drown her kids. That’s a supposition I refuse to make. And just when, pray tell, did you become an expert in psychology and criminal law, **catsix**? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/37 "2005-01-08T04:35:48Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > She was quite obviously in touch enough with reality at the time to methodically drown them, chase down the oldest of them, and then call 911 after they were all dead. That’s really a total non sequitur. It is perfectly conceivable that someone be able to do this, yet not see what they are doing as wrong. It’s also possible that in this case (and I don’t know if this is the case or not) that Ms. Yates knew that killing her children was wrong, yet sincerely believed it would be more wrong to let them live, and that in a bizarre sense her actions would not be criminal under a mistaken concept of justification. Bottom line is an insanity defense works much more often on TV than it does in a court room. In California, for instance, only one out of every 27,000 arrests ends in a succesful insanity plea, and the best estimate I can find is that less than 0.25% of terminated felony prosecutions are the result of insanity defenses. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411/38 "2005-01-08T17:57:49Z")
OK, I know there are times I will remember something I intended to do or say so vividly that I later remember actually having done or said it, only to find out I hadn’t. (thankfully, nothing important) Thus, I do wonder if Dr. Dietz, in his LAW & ORDER consultations, may have discussed or thought of such a plot for a possible episode of L&O, then later misremembered it to the extent that he imagined the episode was made. Thus, stupidity & incompetence, yeah; perjury, no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-andrea-yates/283411.md?page=1)