# I pit Asians against Affirmative Action **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815 "2006-08-30T18:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/81 "2006-09-05T14:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Fact, eh? Well I never. Doubts persist, however; it couldn’t be that the education to which poorer urban kids have access actually has less value, could it? Or are we ruling out the idea that maybe a run-down inner-city school really does provide less value than an Ivy League feeder academy? [/QUOTE] No. Why would we be ruliing it out? But to think that fixing the schools themselves fixes the problem in pollyanish. If only it were so simple. [The Kansas City Desegregation Experiment](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html) shows that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/82 "2006-09-05T14:51:08Z")
I wasn’t trying to make light of the effects of slavery in my previous post. I only wanted to hedge my conclusion because I’m sure slavery is not the only factor. Nothing so large can be explained by only one factor. [QUOTE=you with the face] And this is why I think that if we go about the problem of helping the poor, we can’t accomplish this by treating all poor people the same way. Race _does_ matter and pretending otherwise will not make it stop mattering. [/QUOTE] I can understand what your saying here. I guess it boils down to the idea that fixing previous racism with more deference to race seems contradictory. I think our efforts to educate the poor about the opportunities availble should be heavily targeted towards black communities and presented in ways that get them noticed in those communities since these are the communities that are disproportionately poor. I think the problem with Affermative Action is the perception that unqualified people are being supported in acadamia and employment to the detriment of more qualified people. I don’t have any data on this. I don’t know if it would ever be possible to collect such data. But there is the potential for abuse when the only thing we are looking at is how many of each skin group can be found at a particular school or in a particular job. I would be more comfortable with providing education about the tools to improve yourself rather than the actual avenues for improvement. So, provide education about scholarships and GRE study classes, as opposed to lowering admissions standards or setting admissions quotas for different skin tones. This seems like a less haphazard way of leveling the playing field because it deals with the underlying problem of a compromised primary education. Sorry if this makes no sense, but I have to leave the computer and don’t have time to proof read as carefully as I would like. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/83 "2006-09-05T15:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] No. Why would we be ruliing it out? But to think that fixing the schools themselves fixes the problem in pollyanish. [/quote] You ruled it out in declaring that it is “black people” who value “education” less, with the presumed actual value of an education as some nebulous constant. And I’m not talking about fixes; I am simply saying that what you claim is some cultural “fact” is just as plausibly explained by a model in which everyone has the same valuation function for “education”, but are presented with differing products. This isn’t “pollyannaish”, it’s the bleeding obvious. Despite your claims of factual certitude, you haven’t proven your basic claim. > [@](#): > > If only it were so simple. [The Kansas City Desegregation Experiment](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html) shows that it is not. So throwing money at a school system doesn’t necessarily improve it; I’d have agreed with that anyway. Spending money on taxis for students turns out not to have much positive effect; wow! What does it have to do with my point? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/84 "2006-09-05T15:35:12Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] No. Why would we be ruliing it out? But to think that fixing the schools themselves fixes the problem in pollyanish. If only it were so simple. [/QUOTE] I’m perplexed by you saying that fixing inner-city schools is pollyannish but then being in favor of charter schools, which is simply another way of tackling the very same issue: failing educational systems. At any rate, I don’t believe that charter schools is a sustainable solution for the greater problem that we’re talking about. It sounds all nice and PC to say that parents need to be told about the importance of education, but if only it were so simple. Impoverished parents often have the same “opportunity ignorance” that impoverished kids are afflicted with, so simply giving them platitudes to share with their offspring will not really do much if they don’t believe in the attainability of all these golden opportunities. Plus, if you remove all the promising students from the public schools, it’ll simply lead to the concentration of at-risk students and the further decline of schools (who wants to teach the troublemakers that everyone is running away from?) What’s to be done with those who can not afford to get into charter schools? And furthermore, why should taxpayer money go toward the funding of private school educations as if it is unreasonable to expect an inner-city public school to be just as good as a suburban public school? Asian-Americans do not suffer from poverty like blacks do not because they are culturally superior or cut out of better cloth _but because as a group they’ve experienced a signficantly different history and also because they are voluntary immigrants who came to this country with all the trappings of culture, familial ties, and pre-existing wealth._ If comparisons have to be made, it makes more sense to compare A-As with Native Americans, since, to borrow from Malcolm X, Plymouth Rock landed on them and not the other way around. All too frequently I see people rushing to measure blacks against Asians, who are not a comparable ethnic group but just happen to be the “model minority”, instead of comparing them with Native Americans, who _are_ a comparable ethnic group _and_ just happen to be suffering from a lot of the same socioeconomic problems. It is therefore not unreasonable to think that an undercurrent of racism exists in any discussion that attempts to downplay or dismiss the ramifications of historical anti-black racism because “look at well Asians have done!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/85 "2006-09-05T17:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] All too frequently I see people rushing to measure blacks against Asians, who are not a comparable ethnic group but just happen to be the “model minority”, instead of comparing them with Native Americans, who _are_ a comparable ethnic group _and_ just happen to be suffering from a lot of the same socioeconomic problems. It is therefore not unreasonable to think that an undercurrent of racism exists in any discussion that attempts to downplay or dismiss the ramifications of historical anti-black racism because “look at well Asians have done!!!” [/QUOTE] The problem is that a lot of Asian Americans are now starting to believe the same thing. They are starting to believe that they have succeeded where Blacks have failed. Some of us want to pretend we all started in the same place and Asians(through our natural ability, native intelligence and admirable work ethics /sarcasm) have succeeded despite all the disadvantages of racism while Blacks have wallowed in self pity. In the meantime Blacks were the driving force behind the civil right movement that opened the door wide enough for Asians (with their natural ability, native intelligence and admirable work ethics /sarcasm) to squeeze through and now want to shut the door. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/86 "2006-09-05T18:36:44Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] You ruled it out in declaring that it is “black people” who value “education” less, with the presumed actual value of an education as some nebulous constant. And I’m not talking about fixes; I am simply saying that what you claim is some cultural “fact” is just as plausibly explained by a model in which everyone has the same valuation function for “education”, but are presented with differing products. [/QUOTE] Take a logic course. Just because a group may value education less does not mean that the schools they have access to are not inferior. And that they may also contribute to their poor performance as a group. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] So throwing money at a school system doesn’t necessarily improve it; I’d have agreed with that anyway. Spending money on taxis for students turns out not to have much positive effect; wow! What does it have to do with my point? [/QUOTE] Heaven knows. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/87 "2006-09-05T19:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I’m perplexed by you saying that fixing inner-city schools is pollyannish but then being in favor of charter schools, which is simply another way of tackling the very same issue: failing educational systems. [/QUOTE] Uh, that is NOT what I said. Kindly do not mischaracterize what I’ve said. If you would reread what I wrote you should be able to understand the point. It is not the fixiing inner-schools in pollyanish, but rather, that thinking that fixing the inner-city schools will solve the problem fully. Please be more careful when characterizing what I’ve said. [QUOTE=you with the face] At any rate, I don’t believe that charter schools is a sustainable solution for the greater problem that we’re talking about. It sounds all nice and PC to say that parents need to be told about the importance of education, but if only it were so simple. Impoverished parents often have the same “opportunity ignorance” that impoverished kids are afflicted with, so simply giving them platitudes to share with their offspring will not really do much if they don’t believe in the attainability of all these golden opportunities. [/QUOTE] Other than the first sentence, I agree. Charter schools are a first step. It allows those partents that do have an interest in education—and they exist in every community—to extricate their kids from an abyssmal situation. It begins to end the generational cycles of poor education and poverty. [QUOTE=you with the face] Plus, if you remove all the promising students from the public schools, it’ll simply lead to the concentration of at-risk students and the further decline of schools (who wants to teach the troublemakers that everyone is running away from?) [/QUOTE] Those kids are going to have to be dealt with either way. A charter school prevents those kids from holding everyone back. It also, allows more time to be spent with them and have more of the curriculum designed for their needs. [QUOTE=you with the face] What’s to be done with those who can not afford to get into charter schools? And furthermore, why should taxpayer money go toward the funding of private school educations as if it is unreasonable to expect an inner-city public school to be just as good as a suburban public school? [/QUOTE] First of all, charter schools, I’m farily certain, do not require extra payment. That is voucher schools. But to answer your question, it allows government money to do a better job of what it was inteded for: educating children. [QUOTE=you with the face] Asian-Americans do not suffer from poverty like blacks do not because they are culturally superior or cut out of better cloth _but because as a group they’ve experienced a signficantly different history and also because they are voluntary immigrants who came to this country with all the trappings of culture, familial ties, and pre-existing wealth._ If comparisons have to be made, it makes more sense to compare A-As with Native Americans, since, to borrow from Malcolm X, Plymouth Rock landed on them and not the other way around. All too frequently I see people rushing to measure blacks against Asians, who are not a comparable ethnic group but just happen to be the “model minority”, instead of comparing them with Native Americans, who _are_ a comparable ethnic group _and_ just happen to be suffering from a lot of the same socioeconomic problems. [/QUOTE] What is your point? That Blacks and Native Americans have been taken advatage of and abused in the past? And…? Look around. There are many, many Blacks and Native Americans who do extremely well. Those that do tend to leave their culture, as it is defined by the lower classes of the respective cultures, behind. It is too common in the inner cities for good school performance to be thought of as “cting white”. As long as an attitude likle that pervades a culture, the group as a whole will suffer miserably. [QUOTE=you with the face] It is therefore not unreasonable to think that an undercurrent of racism exists in any discussion that attempts to downplay or dismiss the ramifications of historical anti-black racism because “look at well Asians have done!!!” [/QUOTE] We might have to different understandings of reasonable. I think most people who know enough to raise the issue intelligently are doing so to point out that it IS cultural. It is not innate. If the culture changes, so will the academic success of kids. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/88 "2006-09-05T19:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Take a logic course. Just because a group may value education less does not mean that the schools they have access to are not inferior. [/quote] Thank you; I happen to have a Master’s degree primarily in computational logic, but it’s awfully sweet of you to make the suggestion all the same, particularly in the light of what comes next. Speaking of which, you go on to successfully repeat my _exact point_ to me, which I have to say is a bit novel. What would you say are the implications it has for _your_ contention that the differing valuations are indisputably cultural in origin? Are you now conceding that it could be either or both, and you don’t actually have anything more factual than your own insistence? To remind you, you said: > [@](#): > > You know, this sounds all nice and fine and has a nice PC ring to it, but the fact is that blacks, on average, do not value education as highly as most other groups. How do you know this as fact, given an entirely plausible counter-hypothesis and having no actual evidence of your own? > [@](#): > > Heaven knows. Did you not read your own link, then? It was quite interesting, but entirely irrelevant. If we ever have an argument about whether wasting money is bad, it’ll be a winner. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/89 "2006-09-05T19:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Thank you; I happen to have a Master’s degree primarily in computational logic, but it’s awfully sweet of you to make the suggestion all the same, particularly in the light of what comes next. Speaking of which, you go on to successfully repeat my _exact point_ to me, which I have to say is a bit novel. What would you say are the implications it has for _your_ contention that the differing valuations are indisputably cultural in origin? Are you now conceding that it could be either or both, and you don’t actually have anything more factual than your own insistence? To remind you, you said: How do you know this as fact, given an entirely plausible counter-hypothesis and having no actual evidence of your own? [/QUOTE] I would have said the culture is one of the factors. You keep wanting to imply that it’s one or the other. Surely you learned in your studies that hey BOTH can be true. And from the reading I’ve done and talks I’ve heard, are. There was even a panel discussion last week or so on C-Span, where the all-black panel (I’m pretty sure about that) was saying these very same things. The author I cited, along with her husband Stephen Thernstrom wrote a book called No Excuses, touching on the subject several times. She, Abigail, was also on a panel on C-span about a hal a year ago citing her research that showed that the number of books in the home is an accurate indication of how a kid will do in school. I think it fairly safe to say that people who value education less will tend to have fewer books in the home than those who value education more. Can I provide you with a cite that states this as fact explicitly? I haven’t looked. and am not so inclined. I find it quite amazing that you have interest in this and haven’t heard this explanation by all sides. It’s hardly controversial. But let me see if I understand you. We agree that the poor quality of the schools themselves plays a role. Right? I say that another factor is an anti-education attitude that pervades many black inner-city neighborhoods, that doing well in school is not cool. Do you not agree that this is the case? Or do you agree that is the case, but that it doesn’t hinder performance? Or both? If so, do you think that poor quality schools is the only thing standing in the way of equal performance. If not, what contributing factors do you see at work. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] Did you not read your own link, then? It was quite interesting, but entirely irrelevant. If we ever have an argument about whether wasting money is bad, it’ll be a winner. [/QUOTE] It’s not irrelevant. It shows that even when you build the best school possible, literally sparing no expense, that the performance doesn’t improve. So there has to be something else at play. I shared what most experts I’ve heard, of every color, accept as fact. You reject that? Fine. What do you offer as an explanation. Aslo, why are you so sure my claim is untrue? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/90 "2006-09-05T20:27:14Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Uh, that is NOT what I said. Kindly do not mischaracterize what I’ve said. If you would reread what I wrote you should be able to understand the point. It is not the fixiing inner-schools in pollyanish, but rather, that thinking that fixing the inner-city schools will solve the problem fully. [/quote] Who has said that anything will fix the problem fully? No one. You took an insulting tone towards another poster’s idea although you advocate addressing the same damn thing: poor education. How is it a mischaracterization to state that I am bewildered by what seems to be an inconsistent position of yours? > [@](#): > > What is your point? That Blacks and Native Americans have been taken advatage of and abused in the past? And…? Look around. There are many, many Blacks and Native Americans who do extremely well. And? That doesn’t change the fact that many do not. I mean, why would be having this discussion if that wasn’t the case? My point is that pointing to the success of Asian-Americans in an attempt to show that blacks are disproportionately poor due to cultural failings is erroneous and illogical. > [@](#): > > Those that do tend to leave their culture, as it is defined by the lower classes of the respective cultures, behind. Why do you think the customs of the “lower classes” defines the culture of the greater whole? That’s a real interesting statement, because I believe this perception ultimately explains why black people–regardless of their socioeconomic class–so often have to combat stereotypes associated with the urban poor. It’s because you and others like you think that those who eschew behaviors and values typically associated with poverty are being less culturally black than those who do not. Not for a minute would anyone consider looking at white people in the same way. Not for a minute. But let me be the first to inform you that there are plenty of black people who practice and identify with their ethnic culture, but who are well-planted in the bosom of the middle class. One has nothing to do with the other. > [@](#): > > It is too common in the inner cities for good school performance to be thought of as “cting white”. It is too common in schools everywhere for good school performance to be thought of as “nerdy”, “geeky” or “dorky”. The inner-city version of conventional anti-intellectual epithets happens to be of the “trying to be white” variety because, in the eyes of these kids, “nerds”, “geeks”, and “dorks” are white (Steve Urkel, not withstanding). But what is your point? > [@](#): > > We might have to different understandings of reasonable. I think most people who know enough to raise the issue intelligently are doing so to point out that it IS cultural. It is not innate. If the culture changes, so will the academic success of kids. But culture is shaped by the environment in which it lives. And environment doesn’t come from a vacuum. The past gives rise to the present. To blame what we see on culture without recognizing that culture also doesn’t spring out of a vacuum is foolish and short-sighted. It’s like saying that because black kids see studiousness as a “white thing”, that’s why they are so poor. Yeah, but why might they think it’s a “white thing” as opposed to a “nerdy thing” like poor white kids do? Can it all just be tidily blamed on culture? Or perhaps its because race has an added effect on their perception of life’s opportunities, as I discussed before? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/91 "2006-09-05T20:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I say that another factor is an anti-education attitude that pervades many black inner-city neighborhoods, that doing well in school is not cool. Do you not agree that this is the case? [/quote] It’s certainly a glib and oft-repeated cliche, whose factual nature I do not know; to be frank, it seems to me that neither of us are exactly familiar at first hand with the attitudes of the American urban poor, and it is not me making the claim here\*. What I objected to was your categorical assertion as “fact” that this is a significantly cultural factor, when simple economics (not even socio-economics) provides an entirely plausible explanation. Given the startling amount of anti-intellectualism observable in the American population at large, it doesn’t seem evident to me that there is any increased black cultural tendency to eschew education other than that which would result from said education being crappy. I am willing to be convinced, but I balk at being told that it is simply “fact”. > [@](#): > > It’s not irrelevant. It shows that even when you build the best school possible, literally sparing no expense, that the performance doesn’t improve. Ah, so you _didn’t_ read your own link. What emerges from that is the fact that a vast amount of money can be spent on useless things without improving the quality of education on offer (a quote contained therein described perhaps 20% of the teachers in the district as being capable of being brought up to standard with remedial training; not an indication of glowing prowess). This has nothing to do with a race’s cultural evaluation of the product on offer, unless we assume that black people are unable to distinguish expensive, flashy crap from genuine quality. Your cite details a catalogue of mismanagement, errant spending and stupidity. What it categorically does not illustrate is a quality education product going unappreciated by anyone, be it the urban poor or the suburban middle class shipped in by taxi to facilitate “desegregation”. - You may of course surprise me here and turn out to be a black community worker from Detroit. Stranger things have happened at sea. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/92 "2006-09-05T21:36:43Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Who has said that anything will fix the problem fully? No one. You took an insulting tone towards another poster’s idea although you advocate addressing the same damn thing: poor education. How is it a mischaracterization to state that I am bewildered by what seems to be an inconsistent position of yours? [/QUOTE] I said this: > [@](#): > > But to think that fixing the schools themselves fixes the problem in pollyanish. If only it were so simple. Obviously there is something else I am alluding to other than the schools themselves, i.e., the larger problem. Since you missed that I asked you to reread it _and_ I supplied clarification. If you still don’t see that what you said here: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by you with the face > I’m perplexed by **you saying that fixing inner-city schools is pollyannish** … as mischaracteriziing my position, it appears that you and I will not be able to communicate and we shold just both move on. [QUOTE=you with the face] My point is that pointing to the success of Asian-Americans in an attempt to show that blacks are disproportionately poor due to cultural failings is erroneous and illogical. [/QUOTE] Wealth? They _are_ disproportionately poor. I must not be understanding you here. Please rephrase. [QUOTE=you with the face] Why do you think the customs of the “lower classes” defines the culture of the greater whole? [/QUOTE] I believe nor said any such thing. Is doesn’t define it by itself, but it contributes to the definition of it, as do other things. But as a large percentage of blacks are of a lower socioeconomic and educational class, it plays a large part. A much larger part than, say, the existence of black CEOs or doctors. [QUOTE=you with the face] That’s a real interesting statement, because I believe this perception ultimately explains why black people–regardless of their socioeconomic class–so often have to combat stereotypes associated with the urban poor. It’s because you and others like you think that those who eschew behaviors and values typically associated with poverty are being less culturally black than those who do not. [/QUOTE] Try reading the words I write and comprehending them before you try to read my fucking mind. Is that too much to ask? [QUOTE=you with the face] But let me be the first to inform you that there are plenty of black people who practice and identify with their ethnic culture, but who are well-planted in the bosom of the middle class. One has nothing to do with the other. [/QUOTE] I’d add the word “necessarily” to the last sentence and agree, as is evidenced by my friend who has doctorate in mathematics. And the psychiatrist who had a friend and I build him a fence over the stream on his beautiful property when I was in college. And my friend’s ex-girlfriend’s dad, who is an M.D.? And a friend of mine who is a well-respected columist for a major newspaper? And the dad of the kid I went to high school with who had a driver shuffle him back and forth into Manhattan every day? Look, no one is saying that there aren’t many, many black people in the middle and upper middle classes. There are even whole communities that are as affluent as many of the better white upper class communities. But when you look at the group as a whole, the overall performance is dragged down by the much larger numbers in the inner cities. Do you deny this? Which part of it? [QUOTE=you with the face] It is too common in schools everywhere for good school performance to be thought of as “nerdy”, “geeky” or “dorky”. The inner-city version of conventional anti-intellectual epithets happens to be of the “trying to be white” variety because, in the eyes of these kids, “nerds”, “geeks”, and “dorks” are white (Steve Urkel, not withstanding). But what is your point? [/QUOTE] That the prevalent culture of inner-city blacks does not hold education in as high esteem as other cultures. THAT is what started this, if you recall. [QUOTE=you with the face] But culture is shaped by the environment in which it lives. And environment doesn’t come from a vacuum. The past gives rise to the present. To blame what we see on culture without recognizing that culture also doesn’t spring out of a vacuum is foolish and short-sighted. [/QUOTE] But what does that mean? What do you want me to do with that information? How can I use it to end the recurring cycle of poor education and poverty that plague the inner cities. I am pointing to two things that we seem to have learned: 1. Just fixing the schools will not have the desired effect 2. Culture is a strong determinant of how a kid will do in school Asian kids or Hungarian kids or kids newly arrived from Africa do better than African-American kids in school. Even in the same schools. Why? Do you think they are inherently more intelligent? Have a greater aptitude for learning? I think not. Most experts think not. They attribute the difference to culture. I found it interesting that even the best performers, Asian immigrants, lose their advantage after they have been here three generations. So after three generations, whatever socioeconomic stratum they are in, they no longer do better then the “average” American kid in the stratum. [QUOTE=you with the face] It’s like saying that because black kids see studiousness as a “white thing”, that’s why they are so poor. [/QUOTE] No. You can’t hold a kid responsible for where he falls on the socioeconomic scale. [QUOTE=you with the face] Yeah, but why might they think it’s a “white thing” as opposed to a “nerdy thing” like poor white kids do? Can it all just be tidily blamed on culture? Or perhaps its because race has an added effect on their perception of life’s opportunities, as I discussed before? [/QUOTE] Because they are aware that white kids do better. They are also aware that Asians do better. They are now becoming aware the hispanics do better. They, based on what they see every day, have very little reason to equate scholastic achievement with blackness. Sadly, some of them have embraced this perception/reality and made doing poorly a badge of honor. This is what has to be turned around. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/93 "2006-09-05T21:52:39Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] It’s certainly a glib and oft-repeated cliche, whose factual nature I do not know; to be frank, it seems to me that neither of us are exactly familiar at first hand with the attitudes of the American urban poor, and it is not me making the claim here\*. What I objected to was your categorical assertion as “fact” that this is a significantly cultural factor, when simple economics (not even socio-economics) provides an entirely plausible explanation. Given the startling amount of anti-intellectualism observable in the American population at large, it doesn’t seem evident to me that there is any increased black cultural tendency to eschew education other than that which would result from said education being crappy. I am willing to be convinced, but I balk at being told that it is simply “fact”. [/QUOTE] I appreciate your prudence. I’ve heard it so often from so many different sources I’ve accepted it as true. But I am aware that that doesn’t mean it _is_ true. But an additional reason I believe it to be the case is that is helps explain things. If fixing the schools doesn’t work, and the cause is not innate, then it must be something else. What other factor(s) do you think is mainly at play? [QUOTE=Dead Badger] Ah, so you _didn’t_ read your own link. [/QUOTE] I admit that I just skimmed the link, as I wanted to quickly provide something the explained the experiment. I have read about in other places. But the consensus I’ve heard, with unanimity, is that money alone is not the answer. Do you have reason to believe that money _is_ the answer? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/94 "2006-09-05T22:17:18Z")
When I see conservatives denying the existence of racism in current society (therefore Affirmative Action isn’t needed) I am reminded of a quote from _The Usual Suspects_: > [@Kayser Souze](#): > > The smartest thing the devil ever did was convince people that he didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/95 "2006-09-05T22:27:05Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Obviously there is something else I am alluding to other than the schools themselves, i.e., the larger problem. Since you missed that I asked you to reread it _and_ I supplied clarification. If you still don’t see that what you said here: (bolding mine) [/quote] I didn’t misread you. In one breath, you’re saying that fixing the inner-city schools won’t fix the underlying issue, that being a culture that fosters poverty. But in the next breath, you’re saying that charter schools is a “first step” in solving the problem. I don’t quite understand how this solution follows from your idea about culture being the source of the problem. > [@](#): > > Wealth? They _are_ disproportionately poor. I must not be understanding you here. Please rephrase. Comparing Asian-Americans with blacks in an attempt to show that cultural differences are to blame for the disparities between the two groups is erroneous and illogical. Clearer? > [@](#): > > I believe nor said any such thing. Is doesn’t define it by itself, but it contributes to the definition of it, as do other things. But as a large percentage of blacks are of a lower socioeconomic and educational class, it plays a large part. A much larger part than, say, the existence of black CEOs or doctors. Should the habits of poor country whites “contribute to the definiton” of white culture? Why should the habits of poor urban blacks influence the way all black people are viewed when the same logic is not employed with whites? > [@](#): > > Look, no one is saying that there aren’t many, many black people in the middle and upper middle classes. There are even whole communities that are as affluent as many of the better white upper class communities. But when you look at the group as a whole, the overall performance is dragged down by the much larger numbers in the inner cities. Do you deny this? Which part of it? I don’t dispute that there are many successful black people. What I dispute is the idea that successful black people become successful by leaving behind their culture, rather than simply adopting practices and values that are conducive to success just as groups around the world, irrespective of culture, have been doing since the beginning of time. By dissassociating these positive practices from black culture, you’re making it easier to turn black culture into a scape goat. The anti-intellectualism often seen in the ghetto therefore looks like a “black thing” to you instead of “poverty thing”. > [@](#): > > That the prevalent culture of inner-city blacks does not hold education in as high esteem as other cultures. THAT is what started this, if you recall. Anybody mired in generational poverty probably have the same attitudes. It’s not because of their ethnic culture, though. It’s because when you are poor, that’s what happens to your outlook. > [@](#): > > Asian kids or Hungarian kids or kids newly arrived from Africa do better than African-American kids in school. Even in the same schools. Why? Do you think they are inherently more intelligent? Have a greater aptitude for learning? I think not. Most experts think not. They attribute the difference to culture. But the diagnosis doesn’t stop there. You don’t just pin it on this nebulous thing called culture and then wash your hands. A scientist would ask why the culture of the poor urban kid differs from the poor fresh-off-the-boat immigrant. Knowing why allows you to figure how to fix it. Just attributing it to culture doesn’t help much if you don’t know why the culture has become what it is. > [@](#): > > I found it interesting that even the best performers, Asian immigrants, lose their advantage after they have been here three generations. So after three generations, whatever socioeconomic stratum they are in, they no longer do better then the “average” American kid in the stratum. It becomes easier to conform to the mainstream the more contact one has with it. > [@](#): > > They, based on what they see every day, have very little reason to equate scholastic achievement with blackness. Sadly, some of them have embraced this perception/reality and made doing poorly a badge of honor. This is what has to be turned around. And I agree. But can’t you see that this isn’t so much about African-American culture as it is about poor people feeling marginalized not only because of their low social class but also because of their race? In other words, it’s a consequence of a society that has self-perpetuating disparities and history of valuing some citizens higher than others. It’s far too easy to just blame it on culture, when as I said before, culture comes from the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/96 "2006-09-05T22:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I appreciate your prudence. I’ve heard it so often from so many different sources I’ve accepted it as true. But I am aware that that doesn’t mean it _is_ true. But an additional reason I believe it to be the case is that is helps explain things. If fixing the schools doesn’t work, and the cause is not innate, then it must be something else. What other factor(s) do you think is mainly at play? [/quote] I don’t think “fixing the schools” has been proven not to work. I think it has been proven to be really difficult. Your cite was just another example of this. One of the problems seems to have been the difficulty of presenting an inclusive face by recruiting locally while simultaneously improving quality. I think this is a structural problem, not cultural. I think these difficulties abound, and that they should be addressed before attempting loose and fruitless generalisations about what problems ethnic groups should address through introspection. > [@](#): > > I admit that I just skimmed the link, as I wanted to quickly provide something the explained the experiment. I have read about in other places. But the consensus I’ve heard, with unanimity, is that money alone is not the answer. Do you have reason to believe that money _is_ the answer? No, and I never said it was. I think it’s difficult to attract teaching talent to poorly performing schools; I think it’s difficult to reward said talent in such a context; I think it’s seductive to spend vast amounts of money on crap like the Russian national fencing coach (as did the district in your link). I think it’s extraordinarily difficult to improve an education system. I remain vastly sceptical that there is any significant “cultural” phenomenon at work other than a natural reaction to being offered crap; be it shiny crap or just crappy crap. I just think that saying something as facile as “blacks need to value education more” is likely to be hugely counterproductive when you’re hawking a second-rate education in the first place. I think that people generally value things according to their actual value, and that they are remarkably perceptive, by and large, in assessing that value. People know opportunities when they see them; if there is resistance to education as an avenue, then I think we should investigate whether it’s really all it’s cracked up to be before we start saying that black people are anti-intellectual or similar. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/97 "2006-09-05T23:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I didn’t misread you. In one breath, you’re saying that fixing the inner-city schools won’t fix the underlying issue, that being a culture that fosters poverty. But in the next breath, you’re saying that charter schools is a “first step” in solving the problem. I don’t quite understand how this solution follows from your idea about culture being the source of the problem. [/QUOTE] A charter school will allow some in the community, most likely those more interested in education, to avail themselves of a better opportunity. Theoretically, these kids will get a better education (remember charter schools are given charters where the schools are clearly failing the kids). That, in turn will increase the incidence of kids in the neighborhood going to college. And these kids will come home during holidays at summers. Now they’re younger brothers and sisters are introduced to a new paradigm, as are other youngsters in the neighborhood. They are now more exposed to these positive role models, which should help them see that road as an option for themselves. I think that the more role models that these kids are exposed to—that it’s not just the one nerdy Yerkle—the more they will project themselves into that situation. Right now, they don’t have much opportunity to do that. [QUOTE=you with the face] Comparing Asian-Americans with blacks in an attempt to show that cultural differences are to blame for the disparities between the two groups is erroneous and illogical. [/QUOTE] Clearer? Yes. But why is it erroneous? Why is it illogical? I maintian that cultural differnces is the major factor. [QUOTE=you with the face] Should the habits of poor country whites “contribute to the definiton” of white culture? Why should the habits of poor urban blacks influence the way all black people are viewed when the same logic is not employed with whites? [/QUOTE] They do contribute. The totality of any group goes into their overall image. Some blacks play hockey, but the incidence is so small as to not effect the percption of the group. Conversely, many blacks play basketball, therefore basketball is more closely linked to blackness than hockey. Whites enjoy a place near the top of the socioeconomic stratum. And although there are more poor whites than poor blacks in absolute numbers, the precentage is smaller. So while being poor and white is part of the white experience, it is dwarfed by the larger numbers who are doing better. Even the lowly “white trash” goes into the equation, but it simply isn’t large enough a subgroup to dictate the overall impression of the larger group. [QUOTE=you with the face] I don’t dispute that there are many successful black people. What I dispute is the idea that successful black people become successful by leaving behind their culture, rather than simply adopting practices and values that are conducive to success just as groups around the world, irrespective of culture, have been doing since the beginning of time. By dissassociating these positive practices from black culture, you’re making it easier to turn black culture into a scape goat. The anti-intellectualism often seen in the ghetto therefore looks like a “black thing” to you instead of “poverty thing”. [/QUOTE] I don’t think that we are in disagreement here. There is a black culture that is rich and prevalent. But there is also a black culture in the inner city that has contorted the richer, more positive culture. Yes it is a poverty thing. But poverty + blackness (inner city) does not equal poverty + whiteness (rural). One is not better or worse than the other. They both are a shame, especially for the kids that are robbed of an opportunity to better theselves. But they needn’t be discussed as one. Infact, discussing the specifics of each is necessary to get to the cause, and hopefully a solution, for either. [QUOTE=you with the face] But the diagnosis doesn’t stop there. You don’t just pin it on this nebulous thing called culture and then wash your hands. A scientist would ask why the culture of the poor urban kid differs from the poor fresh-off-the-boat immigrant. Knowing why allows you to figure how to fix it. Just attributing it to culture doesn’t help much if you don’t know why the culture has become what it is. [/QUOTE] Okay. But the first step is acknowledging it. You can’t study or hope to understand something that you can’t first define. [QUOTE=you with the face] It becomes easier to conform to the mainstream the more contact one has with it. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. [QUOTE=you with the face] And I agree. But can’t you see that this isn’t so much about African-American culture as it is about poor people feeling marginalized not only because of their low social class but also because of their race? In other words, it’s a consequence of a society that has self-perpetuating disparities and history of valuing some citizens higher than others. It’s far too easy to just blame it on culture, when as I said before, culture comes from the environment. [/QUOTE] And the environment comes from the culture. Why do you think that black inner cities have more liquor stores than book stores? As I think you said, it is a self-perpetuating cycle. I guess the major point is that what can we do to fix things. I prefer to focus on things that are actionable. We can attribute everything to three hundred years of slavery. Fine. Now what? Let’s understand where we are now and improve the situation. I think not giving poor kids—of any color—an opportunity to extricate himself from the dismal situation he was born into is the largest failing of this country. If I could fix one thing, that would be it. There have been millions and millions of poor kids over the past 150 years, but they were able to use education as a ladder. Every day we allow these kids to waste away is a blight upon the moral character of this nation. It is a break with the idea of America. I want action. That is why I like charter schools. The salvation of some starts immediately. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/98 "2006-09-05T23:56:58Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] I don’t think “fixing the schools” has been proven not to work. I think it has been proven to be really difficult. Your cite was just another example of this. One of the problems seems to have been the difficulty of presenting an inclusive face by recruiting locally while simultaneously improving quality. I think this is a structural problem, not cultural. I think these difficulties abound, and that they should be addressed before attempting loose and fruitless generalisations about what problems ethnic groups should address through introspection. [/QUOTE] Although I do believe that money alone is not a real solution, I find great sense in what you say. But in the meantime I strogly advocate charter schools. Doing nothing except studying the problem fro another twenty years is not acceptable. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] No, and I never said it was. I think it’s difficult to attract teaching talent to poorly performing schools; I think it’s difficult to reward said talent in such a context; I think it’s seductive to spend vast amounts of money on crap like the Russian national fencing coach (as did the district in your link). I think it’s extraordinarily difficult to improve an education system. I remain vastly sceptical that there is any significant “cultural” phenomenon at work other than a natural reaction to being offered crap; be it shiny crap or just crappy crap. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s fair of you to keep pointing to the more unusual things that the school decided to pay for. The point is tno that they paid for those specific things, bu that they had a blank check to pay for everything and anything, even the more extreme ideas you cite. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] I just think that saying something as facile as “blacks need to value education more” is likely to be hugely counterproductive when you’re hawking a second-rate education in the first place. I think that people generally value things according to their actual value, and that they are remarkably perceptive, by and large, in assessing that value. People know opportunities when they see them; if there is resistance to education as an avenue, then I think we should investigate whether it’s really all it’s cracked up to be before we start saying that black people are anti-intellectual or similar. [/QUOTE] Again, you make good points. But I still maintain their is a cultural problem toward education in the inner cities. I think it is imperative that we recognize that, as only after doing so, can we begin to rectify it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/99 "2006-09-06T00:34:03Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Although I do believe that money alone is not a real solution, I find great sense in what you say. But in the meantime I strogly advocate charter schools. Doing nothing except studying the problem fro another twenty years is not acceptable. [/quote] I haven’t said that money alone is a real solution; far from it. Nor have I said that twenty years of study are what is needed (I have no idea where you got this from). My only point is that focussing on “cultural” differences, when it’s far from plain that any such thing exist, is likely to be counter-productive. Going to a community and saying “you’ve got to appreciate education more” while simultaneously offering a crap education is actively counter-productive; it breeds mistrust and achieves less than nothing. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s fair of you to keep pointing to the more unusual things that the school decided to pay for. The point is tno that they paid for those specific things, bu that they had a blank check to pay for everything and anything, even the more extreme ideas you cite. Why is it not fair of me to point out that the money was not used wisely? You are saying, “here is an example of cultural resistance to a quality education.” I am saying that it was _not_ a quality education despite the expense; the ludicrous expenditure is direct proof of that. My point is not that money is a panacea; quite the opposite - I would strenuously disagree with such a contention. My point is that simply because a lot of money was spent does not mean that good standards were achieved and rejected. This, after all, is the very basis of your own cite. Granted, it’s from the Cato Institute, who might be expected to oppose federal expenditure; but it’s your cite - you were trying to demonstrate how quality education had failed to make an impact. I’m simply pointing out that it merely proves that money failed to provide quality education. Not the same thing. > [@](#): > > Again, you make good points. But I still maintain their is a cultural problem toward education in the inner cities. Fine, but I think at this point it behoves you to show some evidence that the problem is cultural rather than structural. As simplistically appealing as it is to say that a given population just has to value what they’re given more highly, at some point it really is necessary that we determine whether there is value there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815/100 "2006-09-06T01:29:46Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] A charter school will allow some in the community, most likely those more interested in education, to avail themselves of a better opportunity. Theoretically, these kids will get a better education (remember charter schools are given charters where the schools are clearly failing the kids). That, in turn will increase the incidence of kids in the neighborhood going to college. [/quote] And all this occurs because they become better educated. Not because they suddenly start valuing education more. Right? > [@](#): > > Clearer? Yes. But why is it erroneous? Why is it illogical? I maintian that cultural differnces is the major factor. Because blacks are to Asians as apples are to oranges. The only thing the two groups have in common is that they are non-white in a predominately white, historically racist society. That, to me, is insufficient grounds to justify measuring the achievments of one against the acheivements of the other. Ostriches have wings just like bats do. Doesn’t mean it should be able to fly just as easily. > [@](#): > > Whites enjoy a place near the top of the socioeconomic stratum. And although there are more poor whites than poor blacks in absolute numbers, the precentage is smaller. So while being poor and white is part of the white experience, it is dwarfed by the larger numbers who are doing better. Even the lowly “white trash” goes into the equation, but it simply isn’t large enough a subgroup to dictate the overall impression of the larger group. Dictate to whom and by whom? There is much irony in this belief. You decry black kids who think book learning is incompatible with acting black, but why fault them for this attitude when, in your own way, you do the same thing by associating blackness with the social ills of poor people everywhere? How are you going to get poor urban youth to buy into the concept that doing well in school doesn’t make one a sell-out, when you suggest that their ethnic identity is related to very thing you’re trying to get them to leave behind? If poor urban kids take comfort from the ethnic identity, disparaging that will only breed distrust and resentment. These kids don’t want to become “white wannabes” but that’s exactly the message you’d be sending to them by suggesting that their is something wrong with black culture. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that we are in disagreement here. There is a black culture that is rich and prevalent. But there is also a black culture in the inner city that has contorted the richer, more positive culture. I think you are throwing around “black culture” too freely. There is culture associated with class, there is culture associated with regional differences, there is culture associated with social/geographical barriers (which lead to the formation of ethnic groups), and there is culture associated with religion. To throw everything under the umbrella of “black culture” obscures what we are really seeing. A poor white family in the middle of Podunk, Alabama is literally and figuratively miles apart from the rich white family in upstate New York. They may have a few cultural things in common due to a shared ethnic and regional descendancy, but it would be folly to say that self-destructive habits of the poor white family can be attributed to the same species of culture that the other family is a party to. Their class differences are much greater in magnitude than any similarities imparted by membership in the same ethnic group, and so class should be what should be the focus is on. Not race or ethnicity. > [@](#): > > Yes it is a poverty thing. But poverty + blackness (inner city) does not equal poverty + whiteness (rural). One is not better or worse than the other. I’m not saying otherwise. I’m just saying poverty is not a black thing and the same problems seen in the ghetto are played out by other socially isolated and low income ethnic groups. That tells me that everything that you are attributing to black culture actually should be blamed on “poverty culture”. > [@](#): > > Okay. But the first step is acknowledging it. You can’t study or hope to understand something that you can’t first define. And ackowledging anything requires knowing exactly you’re ackowledging. > [@](#): > > And the environment comes from the culture. Why do you think that black inner cities have more liquor stores than book stores? Because poverty breeds drug dependency. Drug dependency breeds poverty. Acoholism is a social ill associated with poverty. It has nothing to do with culture. Unless you’re saying that symptoms of poverty make up one’s culture, I don’t understand your point. > [@](#): > > I guess the major point is that what can we do to fix things. I prefer to focus on things that are actionable. We can attribute everything to three hundred years of slavery. Fine. Now what? We try to counteract the negative, self-destructive behaviors that keep people mired in poverty and low self-esteem. Breaking down the walls of social isolation by ecouraging the development of mentoring programs and other activities that bring do-gooders into poor communities. Intensified recruiting efforts for non-McJobs that instill pride in employees, a sense of belong, and optimism. Figuring out a way to engage students and keep them motivated in school, even if it means being unconventional and creative. Tackling the various obstacles that keep poor students from being less college-competitive than more affluent students. Teaching people how to become entrepenuers so that they won’t have to rely on others for a job. Promoting television programming that is diverse and doesn’t rely on stereotypes that reenforce negative ideas about what it means to be black. Please note that none of my ideas have anything to do with fixing culture. Even if the problems could be attributed to culture, I don’t know how stating this will lead to anything constructive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-asians-against-affirmative-action/370815.md?page=6)