# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/261 "2025-04-15T14:11:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Disadvantaged _compared to cis men_, you dishonest piece of shit. He certainly didn’t cite any studies that show that trans women have disadvantages compared to _cis female athletes_, dipshit. He did talk about the disadvantages that trans women have compared to cis female athletes - one example was larger (cis-male-comparable) frames but with lower (cis women-comparable) muscle mass. > [@Babale](#): > > More strawmen… You’re a dishonest liar and a piece of shit. and then you have the gall to accuse _others_ of debating in bad faith. I don’t accuse you of debating in bad faith. I just demonstrate that you’re doing it. And then you consistently prove me right. If your entire point was to comment only on the very specific California-only law, why have you been so vigorously denying, ignoring and/or minimizing what’s happening to trans people in America right now? > [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > so what are you proposing? Let trans women compete in women’s leagues and then consider the individual results after the fact. If they lose, then they clearly don’t have an unfair advantage so its ok and the results stand. If they win, then clearly they had an unfair advantage and you disqualify them? Sounds like a great idea and fair to everyone! Could you maybe rephrase that in a way that doesn’t sounds exactly like historic arguments against racial integration with the key words substituted? > [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m saying that I’m not going to discuss transwomen in sports, because it’s an issue that transphobes are using to pass other anti-trans legislation. But some people have _concerns_. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think it’s safe to say you’ve won the Pitting when the OP has fled and the thread has turned into a remarkably calm and rational discussion of the underlying issue! I had family visiting from overseas the last few days and only had a few brief moments to check in. Sorry for prioritizing. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Nobody is “changing the topic”. Check the link in the OP; Babale is being pitted for a post specifically about his position on trans people in sports, a post where he also said > > > The current administration is trying to shove trans people back in the figurative closet. This is incredibly fucked up, represents decades worth of progress lost, and will very likely cost lives. Which was one example of him minimizing what was actually happening to trans people, whom the government are trying to shove into **literal** prison. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/262 "2025-04-15T14:28:03Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Some repulsive right-winger might employ discussion of trans sports participation as an obvious wedge to introduce their transphobic hatred. But does that mean that @Babale is transphobic? Isn’t that unfair to Babale? Oh no, did someone say a mean thing about Babale? We should fix that right away so that he can continue his idle musings about transwomen without having to concern ourselves with the reality of trans people being denied care, having their identity questioned, being victims of violence, and an onslaught of anti-trans laws being enacted. Because all discussions about trans people should be about the 0.001% competing in girls sports that 0.000% of the anti side gave a crap about before this issue came up. I’d bet there are 100x as many transgirls who kill themselves every year than there are cisgirls who lose a roster spot to a transgirl. But yeah, let’s talk about how unfair it is for a theoretical cisgirl to lose their spot to a theoretical transgirl. That’s the topic everyone should focus on, I guess because it involves a cisgirl potentially feeling bad? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/263 "2025-04-15T19:00:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > If your entire point was to comment only on the very specific California-only law, why have you been so vigorously denying, ignoring and/or minimizing what’s happening to trans people in America right now? I mean, I haven’t done _any_ of that, I just didn’t agree with the term “genocide”. You made up the part where I deny, ignore, or minimize the things happening right now to trans people in America. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Which was one example of him minimizing what was actually happening to trans people, whom the government are trying to shove into **literal** prison. I assume that’s a reference to the proposed Texas HB 3817? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2025, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/264 "2025-04-16T06:16:38Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I wonder: is it possible to debate trans sports–to argue that it’s unfair to cis women to allow trans-women to compete with them for slots on a women’s sports team–without folks assuming that arguer is transphobic? In the vacuum universe? Yes. In this universe we are actually inhabiting, where trans athletes are only ever brought up in the context of women’s sports as a wedge issue to dehumanize trans people? Maybe in some limited forum involving actual stakeholders involved in women’s sports, but not on this message board. Any “whataboutism” over trans women’s participation in women’s sports should be presumed transphobic. Moreover, **Babale** can fuck right off for his support of the genocide in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/265 "2025-04-17T13:37:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I mean, I haven’t done _any_ of that, I just didn’t agree with the term “genocide”. You made up the part where I deny, ignore, or minimize the things happening right now to trans people in America. You have, and I haven’t. And I’m not the only person observing it. > [@Babale](#): > > I assume that’s a reference to the proposed Texas HB 3817? That’s the big one at the forefront ([not counting bills that make helping trans people a felony](https://flatheadbeacon.com/2025/02/03/felony-bill-for-adults-who-procure-provide-treatment-for-trans-minors-advances/)) or indeed [all the other bills designed to impose unreasonable restrictions on trans people](https://translegislation.com/). What do you think happens if they’re judged to have broken any of those? There’s also - as I previously mentioned - [the efforts to move trans women into men’s prisons with inevitably dire consequences](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/07/transgender-women-prison-trump). Note that this is still being done **despite multiple court rulings against it**. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/266 "2025-04-17T13:52:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s the big one at the forefront ([not counting bills that make helping trans people a felony](https://flatheadbeacon.com/2025/02/03/felony-bill-for-adults-who-procure-provide-treatment-for-trans-minors-advances/)) or indeed [all the other bills designed to impose unreasonable restrictions on trans people](https://translegislation.com/). What do you think happens if they’re judged to have broken any of those? I am actually super confused. HB 3817, and the other bills you linked, are exactly what I said above. They’re efforts to prevent trans people from living out in public as the gender they identify with. IE, shove them back in the closet. What the fuck am I denying here? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/267 "2025-04-17T14:10:50Z")
That it’s no longer about “shoving them back into the closet”. “Shoving them back in the closet” suggests that as long as they were out of sight they’d be out of mind. What’s happening now is about an active pogrom against them. It’s about hurting them in every way possible, including imprisonment and worse. This is not hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/268 "2025-04-17T14:15:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That it’s no longer about “shoving them back into the closet”. “Shoving them back in the closet” suggests that as long as they were out of sight they’d be out of mind. What’s happening now is about an active pogrom against them. It’s about hurting them in every way possible, including imprisonment and worse. If a country banned Hijabs, would you call that an attempt to “shove Muslim women into prison”, or would you call that an attempt to prevent them from publicly living as Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/269 "2025-04-17T14:17:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What’s happening now is about an active pogrom against them. It’s about hurting them in every way possible, including imprisonment and worse. Are you claiming that there are trans people in America in prison simply for being trans? And that this is happening at scale? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/270 "2025-04-17T14:29:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If a country banned Hijabs, would you call that an attempt to “shove Muslim women into prison”, or would you call that an attempt to prevent them from publicly living as Muslims? If a country banned, and potentially made illegal gender affirming care and gendered clothing choices but only for trans folks, would you call that an attempt to “shove trans people into prison”, or would you call that an attempt to prevent them from publicly living as trans people? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/271 "2025-04-17T14:43:03Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If a country banned, and potentially made illegal gender affirming care and gendered clothing choices but only for trans folks, would you call that an attempt to “shove trans people into prison”, or would you call that an attempt to prevent them from publicly living as trans people?. I would call that an attempt to prevent trans people from living in public as the gender they identify with, yeah. That’s precisely why I made the analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/272 "2025-04-17T14:44:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Are you claiming that there are trans people in America in prison simply for being trans? And that this is happening at scale? No one was ever in prison simply for being black, yet there absolutely was/are massive numbers of people in prison because they are black. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/273 "2025-04-17T16:57:28Z")
The likely outcome of that would be that trans people would pretend not to be trans when in public – ie, go back in the closet. Few if any would choose to go to prison. That would be a horrible human rights violation, but wouldn’t directly lead to the mass incarceration of trans people. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/274 "2025-04-17T17:07:39Z")
It absolutely would end in mass incarceration of trans people, as most of us will not go back in the closet willingly. I know I’m not going back, since detransitioning would mean certain death, and many of us feel the same way. The government is trying to erase us from existence. There is no way around that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/275 "2025-04-17T17:11:11Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > The government is trying to erase us from existence. There is no way around that fact. Yes, it is undeniable that that is their goal. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2025, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/276 "2025-04-17T17:14:40Z")
It’s not like we have actual quotes from the ‘them’ saying the goal is to eliminate the _concept_ of transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/277 "2025-04-20T10:23:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If a country banned Hijabs, would you call that an attempt to “shove Muslim women into prison”, or would you call that an attempt to prevent them from publicly living as Muslims? I’d certainly think it was a deliberate attempt to harass Muslims. Do you think “wearing a hijab” and “identifying as trans” are of the same degree? > [@Babale](#): > > Are you claiming that there are trans people in America in prison simply for being trans? And that this is happening at scale? No I’m not claiming that, which is why I didn’t say that. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The likely outcome of that would be that trans people would pretend not to be trans when in public – ie, go back in the closet. Few if any would choose to go to prison. That would be a horrible human rights violation, but wouldn’t directly lead to the mass incarceration of trans people. Some would go back into the closet. Others, as Johanna has already indicated, would not. We can debate what percentage of trans people constitute “mass incarceration” but it wouldn’t be a trivial amount. Remember again that they are also pushing to incarcerate trans women in men’s prisons, where they experience [brutal sexual assault and even death](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/278 "2025-04-20T14:54:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’d certainly think it was a deliberate attempt to harass Muslims. Do you think “wearing a hijab” and “identifying as trans” are of the same degree? I don’t know what “of the same degree” means in this context. Clearly, these are different things. And different individuals have different ways of thinking about and interacting with their religious faith or their gender and sexual identity. I made the comparison because, just like some trans people cannot live comfortably and authentically if they aren’t allowed to live as the gender they identify with, or to access gender affirming care, some Muslim women cannot live comfortably and authentically in a society that does not allow her to express her religious faith through wearing a Hijab. You could make similar comparisons to an Orthodox Jew who is not allowed to access kosher food (for example, because kosher slaughter of animals is banned) and so on. > [@Gyrate](#): > > No I’m not claiming that, which is why I didn’t say that. I’m not sure how else to interpret this: > [@Gyrate](#): > > What’s happening now is about an active pogrom against them. It’s about hurting them in every way possible, including imprisonment and worse. > > This is not hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/279 "2025-05-06T15:18:11Z")
> [@Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/205): > > rofl Well, I’m glad I asked before wasting my time. If you’re ready to have a normal conversation, let me know; until then, I’m not a trained lion who jumps through hoops on command. What a weird standard! Should we also stop talking about what MAGA supporters believe, and instead only engage with the writings of conservative thinkers? He cannot possibly stop himself from being a douchebag. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/280 "2025-05-06T15:23:51Z")
Go fuck yourself. We both know your deflection wasn’t in good faith. It’s pathetic how offended you pretend to get when I call you out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=15)