# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/21 "2025-04-07T16:34:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Non-citizens are by definition in this country at the government’s sufferance. It’s reprehensible for the Trump administration to be so intolerant of opposing views but no one can say that that’s illegal. It certainly is illegal without due process. And due process is really the biggest separator and protection from fascism. Without due process, they can grab anyone and claim they’re an enemy, or an illegal immigrant, or a terrorist. Without due process, they can grab you. And without due process, there’s nothing you or anyone can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/22 "2025-04-07T17:19:11Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The vast majority of evil people and movements which, at some point in their histories, could have been validly compared to Hitler don’t actually end up being anywhere near as bad as Hitler, so there’s a lot to be said for restraint in the use of that particular comparison. OTOH, when the actual Hitler was actually carrying out the actual Holocaust, most people in the West didn’t believe it and assumed the Jewish activists trying to draw attention to it were exaggerating. So it’s not clear that reserving claims of genocide for cases that meet the strictest definition would actually cause those claims to be taken more seriously. The other part of this is, in hindsight it’s going to be very difficult to tell the difference between, “That guy wasn’t as bad as his detractors claimed, they were being hyperbolic” and “That guy would have been much worse, but his power grab was successfully blocked.” Presumably, part of the point of saying, “Watch out, this guy’s like Hitler,” is to stop them _before_ they get to the “death camps” stage, but if that’s successful, it ends up looking a lot like the people worrying about death camps were exaggerating. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/23 "2025-04-07T17:19:42Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This pitting is stupid. Babale clearly does not support “trans genocide”. also, people that are not actual supporters of trusk fighting with each other is part of the plan. reason enough to think twice about it. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/24 "2025-04-07T17:20:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not just about trying to push them back into the closet. They are actively trying to criminalize trans existence in many circumstances. Witness [the recent West Virginia state law, which basically legalizes transphobia.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1863) Under the [Riley Gaines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_Gaines) act, non-binary people do not legally exist. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/25 "2025-04-07T17:22:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Non-citizens are by definition in this country at the government’s sufferance. It’s reprehensible for the Trump administration to be so intolerant of opposing views but no one can say that that’s illegal. > > It certainly is illegal without due process. And due process is really the biggest separator and protection from fascism. Without due process, they can grab anyone and claim they’re an enemy, or an illegal immigrant, or a terrorist. Without due process, they can grab you. And without due process, there’s nothing you or anyone can do about it. Okay, I take it back, apparently due process is being violated. The problem is that a lie can go around the world while truth is still putting its pants on, and similar schedules apply to the executive vs. the courts. The Trump administration claims to have the authority and it’s up to the courts to _someday_ get around to declaring that he doesn’t. And if Trump ignores court rulings, it’s up to Congress to impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors. None of this would be happening without the acquiescence of the Republicans, so ultimately it’s up to the voters to vote the scoundrels out. But then who would have believed that Trump could get a second term **after** the country had seen his first term for themselves? You won’t hear me praise Trump, but at this point I still think that his administration is at most fascism-lite. > [@Babale](#): > > Trump has sued multiple media outlets frivolously and then took millions of dollars from them in exchange for dropping the lawsuits. This is a huge abuse of power and should be impeachable in and of itself. Without a doubt. But somehow I just can’t picture Hitler or Mussolini dealing with opposition by suing anyone. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/26 "2025-04-07T17:35:31Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This pitting is stupid. Babale clearly does not support “trans genocide”. agreed. This is one of the most undeserved, bad faith pittings I have read. Gyrate is practically trolling at this point > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Having said that, I can certainly see why people are getting tired of Babale’s schtick of coming into threads where people are discussing terrible things and seemingly caring more about playing Prescriptive Language Police than about actually discussing said terrible things. ok, this is fair to a point. But the proper response from a non-lunatic would be to say, “ok, you’re right, this is not technically genocide we are talking about, but it’s really bad, so let’s concentrate on discussing that”, instead of desperately trying to cling to some tortured, unsupported semantic interpretation so you can keep claiming your word choice is correct. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/27 "2025-04-07T17:43:53Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > > This pitting is stupid. Babale clearly does not support “trans genocide”. > > also, people that are not actual supporters of trusk fighting with each other is part of the plan. > > reason enough to think twice about it. I’m reluctant to post in this thread because I don’t have the time or energy to get into a pointless argument. But I agree with the posters above. Do I agree with @Babale on everything? Not at all - but I see him arguing in good faith. I don’t think that people who don’t 100% agree with everything I believe are automatically worthy of scorn. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/28 "2025-04-07T17:48:06Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > > Having said that, I can certainly see why people are getting tired of Babale’s schtick of coming into threads where people are discussing terrible things and seemingly caring more about playing Prescriptive Language Police than about actually discussing said terrible things. > > ok, this is fair to a point. But the proper response from a non-lunatic would be to say, “ok, you’re right, this is not technically genocide we are talking about, but it’s really bad, so let’s concentrate on discussing that”, instead of desperately trying to cling to some tortured, unsupported semantic interpretation so you can keep claiming your word choice is correct. And I’ll point out that what set Gyrate off was me complaining about _Der Trihs’_ doomposting. Der Trihs doesn’t even post about how “this thing that’s happening is so bad I’m going to use the word “genocide””, he posts apocalyptic fantasy stories about how the goal of the tariffs is to set the US up for nuking everyone else and blah blah blah. But if I’m the only one bothered by his borderline masturbatory obsession I’ll just silently roll my eyes. Or better yet, teach myself to stop clicking “View Hidden Reply”. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/29 "2025-04-07T18:00:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Or better yet, teach myself to stop clicking “View Hidden Reply”. two things that have helped my mental health are putting bozos on ignore and getting on Facebook less. I wish I could say staying off Facebook, but so far I haven’t managed to. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/30 "2025-04-07T18:39:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hitler existed and did bad things before the Holocaust. It’s entirely reasonable to call out similarities to early Hitler when the consequences of ignoring it could result in middle or late Hitler level events. I think it’s not only reasonable but important. > [@Babale](#): > > In reality, when you say “this person is doing Hitler-like stuff”, people associate that with, you know, the Holocaust. In which being considered any kind of queer would also get you killed. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: the lesson of the Holocaust isn’t “this particular thing was uniquely evil”. It’s “if that could happen in 20th century Germany, it can happen anywhere.” And by the time it’s actually happening – it’s too late. Let’s stop this one ahead of time. If it wouldn’t actually have gone there? Great. It still needs to be stopped. But there is absolutely no guarantee that that’s not where it’s going. > [@Babale](#): > > And in reality, part of the reason we are here is that people have been making these comparisons to “early Hitler” since Bush if not earlier. It’s extremely counterproductive. It means that when Trump does something that IS incredibly beyond every possible line - like Jan 6 - it gets lost in the noise. Because some handful of people were complaining about wolves that weren’t there, nobody can ever mention wolves again? That theory’s likely to work out all too well for the wolves. > [@Miller](#): > > Presumably, part of the point of saying, “Watch out, this guy’s like Hitler,” is to stop them _before_ they get to the “death camps” stage, but if that’s successful, it ends up looking a lot like the people worrying about death camps were exaggerating. Quoted for truth. If people manage to stop it before it happens, there’s no way to ever prove whether it would have happened. The only way to prove that’s where it’s going is to go there. Let’s not. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/31 "2025-04-07T18:43:49Z")
Re **Babale** I don’t remember any time I found his posts really objectionable. I still am not sure how to pronounce his screen name and it bugs me. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The vast majority of evil people and movements which, at some point in their histories, could have been validly compared to Hitler don’t actually end up being anywhere near as bad as Hitler, so there’s a lot to be said for restraint in the use of that particular comparison. OTOH, when the actual Hitler was actually carrying out the actual Holocaust, most people in the West didn’t believe it and assumed the Jewish activists trying to draw attention to it were exaggerating. So it’s not clear that reserving claims of genocide for cases that meet the strictest definition would actually cause those claims to be taken more seriously. I have posted this story before. here it is again- About the time Trump first became the Republican nominee, my Mom’s friend Helga said “He reminds me of Hiter.” Normally, I would call that hyperbole and lack of research. Helga lived in Germany during Hitler’s rise ti power. She and her husband were in a concentration camp. They somehow survived and came to America. She had a number tattooed on her arm. She was written up in the local paper because long past retirement age she continued to give presentations and lectures at schools. The subject of those presentations and lectures was bigotry in general and the holocaust in particular. Helga passed away a few years ago. I am reminded of what she said every time I see Tump on the news. Re Israel And Genocide If it’s genocide, the Israelis are doing a simply awful job. It is taking decades. On a slightly more serious note- I can think of a long list of words to call the situation. But genocide just doesn’t fit. **Lumpy** Just what are your political views exactly? IIRC You left a trans thread saying it made you too emotional or something. I distinctly remember quoting your last post in that thead and saying ‘So you are unnwilling or able to back up your claims or position with logic or cites. Got it.’ I could try to find the thread but I forget just how long ago it was and what forum it was in. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/32 "2025-04-07T18:46:02Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If people manage to stop it before it happens It’s actually a bit like the Y2K thing – what was the big deal? Nothing really happened…after millions of man-hours were spent preventing the bad thing. You call something fascist because it’s fascist, even if it hasn’t gotten to the Holocaust stage. Hopefully, people wake up and stop it, even if that means “I don’t know why people were so hard on Trump. He ended up losing power after…(whatever)” ends up being the storyline later. I’m OK avoiding the wholesale destruction of the US even if that means some people can later tut-tut about alarmism. ETA: Whoa, simulpost about Y2K. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/33 "2025-04-07T18:46:03Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If people manage to stop it before it happens, there’s no way to ever prove whether it would have happened. Yep. I know people who said Y2K was over-hyped. As a programmer who busted my ass fixing date logic in a shit-ton of COBOL code, my response tends to be “you’re welcome”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/34 "2025-04-07T18:51:14Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > I know people who said Y2K was over-hyped. As a programmer who busted my ass fixing date logic in a shit-ton of COBOL code, my response tends to be “you’re welcome” I’ve got a family member who was one of those ass-busters. And was on call all that night, in case they’d missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/35 "2025-04-07T19:02:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I still am not sure how to pronounce his screen name and it bugs me. Bab like baboon, ale like whale. In the 2003 steampunk RTS _Impossible Creatures_, you could combine pairs of animals to create the units you used to fight other armies in the game. A Babale was one of the most “meta” picks, combining a baboon’s quick speed and claw attacks with a whale’s bulk and sonic based ranged attack. They were only equalled by the armored and horned Moosobster. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/36 "2025-04-07T19:11:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Bab like baboon, ale like whale. Wow. All these years, I’ve assumed it was “Baba’leh”. Your version is much better. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/37 "2025-04-07T19:15:29Z")
Thanks! Now I know. I lke the back story too! > [@Alessan](#): > > Wow. All these years, I’ve assumed it was “Baba’leh”. > > Your version is much better. I found that unlikely. But I couldn’t rule it out. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/38 "2025-04-07T19:17:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Bab like baboon, ale like whale. Which do you grunt like? As for Lumpy, do you like puzzles…? “Each Sit, Lumpy.” Now, decode it and tell me what I just said. > **[Imgflip](https://imgflip.com/i/9q1sqp)** ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/39 "2025-04-07T19:29:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s obviously possible in theory that there are some Trump officials who would be down to set up gas chambers and are keeping that fact close to the chest, but no, I can’t think of any senior people in the Trump admin who have given me reason to believe that they want to start mass executing trans people or anyone else, no. The thing with fascism is that it rarely starts out with that kind of fully-developed plan. Typically it’s a mob of antisocial jerks who lucked into power. Because those kinds of guys aren’t particularly imaginative, they tend to follow well-worn paths that everyone else can see. They just push, and see what gives way, and push some more. It’s true that nobody’s firing up gas chambers (as far as we know). But they’re already sending lawful US residents into a black-hole of a gang prison in El Salvador, where they have no rights, and likely will never be returned, and likely won’t be found even if we go looking for them. Morally and practically, how different is this from setting up gas chambers? It’s the same permission structure, and that permission structure is _working_. People who do this, and people who stand by and let it happen, will be gradually & incrementally working toward actual gas chambers if they’re not stopped. People think it was excessive to call Bush a dictator for doing this, but if we’d had the guts to call it what it is, to shut down Guantanamo, and put Bush on trial for war crimes, would we be watching Trump do this now? Likely not. Instead we’re watching the adminsitration snatch people off the streets and drop them in Central American gang prisons, meekly arguing that there’s no need to get too worked up because it’s not _technically_ a Holocaust, _yet_. They’re going to keep escalating until they’re stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/40 "2025-04-07T19:29:27Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Lumpy** > Just what are your political views exactly? To answer that, allow me to detour somewhat to my personal views. Have you ever been literally beaten bloody? By a merciless and sadistic authority figure? To the point where you literally start to tremble if something triggers that sense of helplessness and danger? I have. So given this terrible perspective, I believe that I can say with some authority that what the Trump administration is doing falls so far short of genuine fascism that I can only feel rage and scorn for the virtue signalers who haven’t the faintest idea what true oppression is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=3)