# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/421 "2025-05-07T23:55:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > this bit is pretty clearly racist It’s an accusation of racism. It may be inaccurate; but to accuse somebody of racism is not in itself racism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/422 "2025-05-08T00:11:04Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It’s an accusation of racism. No, they’re talking about this part: > [@Ice](#): > > Shut the fuck up you useless ass lipless ass assless loser ass bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/423 "2025-05-08T00:11:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It’s an accusation of racism. It may be inaccurate; but to accuse somebody of racism is not in itself racism Calling a white person an “assless lipless bitch” is absolutely both a racialized and gendered insult. It’s _absolutely_ racist for Ice to go there. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/424 "2025-05-08T01:07:48Z")
Yes, that part is certainly racist. But it’s in the context of being pissed at a white woman for marginalizing the black women working for her. So it’s also a way of emphasizing that this is a racial issue. Using racial insults to make your point is rarely an effective move forward. That whole rant screams, “i want to burn this down”. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/425 "2025-05-08T01:33:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, they’re talking about this part > [@Babale](#): > > Calling a white person an “assless lipless bitch” is absolutely both a racialized and gendered insult. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, that part is certainly racist. OK, granted. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But it’s in the context of being pissed at a white woman for marginalizing the black women working for her. So it’s also a way of emphasizing that this is a racial issue. Also true. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Using racial insults to make your point is rarely an effective move forward. That whole rant screams, “i want to burn this down”. And also true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/426 "2025-05-08T06:43:53Z")
I must say that every time I see the phrase “Oppression Pyramid”, I imagine an actual building. Like Futurama’s Mobile Oppression Palace. Some huge black pyramid with a cliche Evil Overlord inside. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Have you considered the possibility that where both sides see the other as wrong, one of those views might be accurate? The left seem much more aware of what the right-wing media report and how it correlates to actual reality than the right are of what the non-right-wing media (I’m not even going to say “left-wing media” because it’s not an even balance) report and how it correlates to actual reality. > > Sure, there are left-wing bubbles and left-wingers disconnected from the real world. But pretty much the _entire_ American right-wing are currently in a very small and reality-averse bubble, whereas most everyone else…isn’t. Yes, it’s one of the more notable differences between Right and Left IMHO. The Left tend to go wrong more on the future hypothetical end of things, proposing utopian solutions that won’t actually work the way they want. The Right however is full-on delusional. They firmly believe things that are _factually wrong._ When leftists complain about capitalism, sexism, racism? Those things _exist._ When rightists complain about pizzeria pedophilia rings, Democratic weather control machines, microchips in vaccines, immigrants eating house pets? Those things _don’t_ exist. I _think_ the far Left is wrong. I _know_ the Right is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/427 "2025-05-08T06:48:52Z")
@thorny_locust , have you heard of ‘steelmanning’? It’s the opposite of strawmanning, where you try to interpret someone’s argument or position in the most sympathetic light possible. Your reply about Ice’s rant seems to be doing something of the sort, and I’m curious whether you’d try to do that for anyone making a vaguely-racist rant, or only someone you feel is sympathetic/on your side politically? * * * > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > No, they’re talking about this part > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Calling a white person an “assless lipless bitch” is absolutely both a racialized and gendered insult. > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > Yes, that part is certainly racist. > > OK, granted. > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > But it’s in the context of being pissed at a white woman for marginalizing the black women working for her. So it’s also a way of emphasizing that this is a racial issue. > > Also true. > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > Using racial insults to make your point is rarely an effective move forward. That whole rant screams, “i want to burn this down”. > > And also true. This full on macroagression inspired 0% of the outrage that Zee accusing a black woman of yelling did. Because in practice, progressives like this group have a massive double standard, where it’s okay to be openly racist towards white people (and okay to be sexist towards men, etc etc), while people with the disfavoured identities have to tiptoe around lest they accidentally commit a microaggression. And this unequal social dynamic, where criticising or opposing someone who’s more intersectionally oppressed than you will result in your words and actions being scrutinised for any possible offense, while they can freely attack you in any way they please: this inequality enables assholes and bullies, leads to resentment and disengagement among people with more privileged (in wider society) identities, and frequently causes dysfunction in organisations, because it’s an easy avenue of attack against anyone in a position of power, and it’s impossible for groups of any size to function without some kind of hierarchy. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the oppression pyramid. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/428 "2025-05-08T07:56:40Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > where it’s okay to be openly racist towards white people I guess I am progressive then, because when called a “fucking white man” by a Black woman, I found it amusing. If I had said something similar to her, she would have been rightly offended. As the cliché goes, “check your priviledge”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/429 "2025-05-08T10:10:54Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I guess I am progressive then, because when called a “fucking white man” by a Black woman, I found it amusing. If I had said something similar to her, she would have been rightly offended. If someone calls me a fucking _anything_, I tell them to go fuck themselves. It’s just good policy. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/430 "2025-05-08T11:30:50Z")
> [@Intersectionality and the Oppression Pyramid](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/29): > > This is classic “dehumanization of the enemy”, putting forward a theory that white males don’t think like human beings or react like they do. Because white males aren’t people, and don’t react like people or have the same motives as people. So when they apparently act like people there _must_ be some hidden nefarious reason for it. @Der_Trihs , how can you write this and then go straight back to insisting everyone right of centre is motivated entirely by cruelty, and just itching to massacre minorities? What is that if not dehumanising the enemy and attributing their actions to hidden nefarious motives? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/431 "2025-05-08T11:42:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This full on macroagression inspired 0% of the outrage that Zee accusing a black woman of yelling did. Because in practice, progressives like this group have a massive double standard, where it’s okay to be openly racist towards white people (and okay to be sexist towards men, etc etc), while people with the disfavoured identities have to tiptoe around lest they accidentally commit a microaggression. I’m going to guess that Zee actually was blocking the Black people from getting credit, and treating them as incompetent. Or at least, enough of them believed she was that the bulk of the listeners agreed with the primary content of the rant, and thought that it _was_ racially motivated on Zee’s part. Because the point of those racist insults was to drive home that Zee was abusing her White privilege. Or to put it another way, there’s some famous quote about trying to avoid insulting people accidentally, you should only do it on purpose. Zee was, apparently, routinely insulting people accidentally. This speaker was insulting Zee very much on purpose. So it’s a lot less remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/432 "2025-05-08T11:44:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s just good policy. I, instead, took the passive aggressive method. I can sealion with the best, if I choose. She had parked in a clearly marked reserved parking space (reserved, that is, for me, specifically by my employer). So I parked my sizeable truck in a way to block her but allow other traffic past. I then left to go grocery shopping. I returned to find the lady absolutely irate at my insolence. The cherry on top is that her parking ticket payment period (ie, you have X minutes after you pay to leave) had expired. So she then had to go and find the building management in order to pay extra plus a fine to extend her ticket expiry. I feel a certain amount of karma occured but I doubt it was an “aha!” moment for her. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/433 "2025-05-08T12:04:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > @Der_Trihs , how can you write this and then go straight back to insisting everyone right of centre is motivated entirely by cruelty, and just itching to massacre minorities? What is that if not dehumanising the enemy and attributing their actions to hidden nefarious motives? It’s hardly hidden. There’s a difference between attributing malice to Nazis, and thinking that Nazis don’t think like humans. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/434 "2025-05-08T12:07:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m going to guess that Zee actually was blocking the Black people from getting credit, and treating them as incompetent. Or at least, enough of them believed she was that the bulk of the listeners agreed with the primary content of the rant, and thought that it _was_ racially motivated on Zee’s part. I don’t think that is a remotely justified assumption. AIUI, this was a meeting of streamers who were not invited on the tour and were angry about that. Again AIUI, the original rationale of the tour was to follow Charlie Kirk around as he visited university campuses and have popular leftists debate him and attempt to influence students in the opposite direction. Zee recruited two top white male streamers to headline the event because they were primarily trying to appeal to the same audience as Kirk, but there were 50 included in total. I interpreted the POC staff who were supposedly being ‘harmed’ by criticism that the tour was badly organised as being employed by (or volunteers at) Zee’s PAC, rather than being streamers who would be expected to appear on the website. During the call at least one person went over the website, discussing whether it was false advertising to say they were there to debate Charlie Kirk when - according to them - most of them had no interest in doing so or directly countering him. They also complained the ‘two white boys’ Parker and Dean were the only people featured prominently. Zee came on the call to try and defend herself and her decisions, which was a mistake. I think pandering to this sort of complaint often just makes it worse - accede to one unreasonable demand and you’ll get 20 more. But then again, she is part of this subculture and knows what works better than me. She said > [@](#): > > You think that getting 50 plus people to another state to do this is easy? Cuz it’s not, right. that’s an extremely flimsy basis to argue that she was calling them incompetent. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because the point of those racist insults was to drive home that Zee was abusing her White privilege. What white privilege? Specifically _in these spaces_, it’s the other way around. The more ‘oppressed identities’ you can boast, the greater the deference and privilege you’ll be accorded. Being white, male, straight, cis, anything that will get you privilege in the outside world becomes a disadvantage. Why do you think she was trying to hide behind her POC staff? Because she believes they might get the deference and consideration she will not. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Or to put it another way, there’s some famous quote about trying to avoid insulting people accidentally, you should only do it on purpose. Zee was, apparently, routinely insulting people accidentally. This speaker was insulting Zee very much on purpose. So it’s a lot less remarkable. You appear to be saying that insulting people accidentally is worse than doing so on purpose? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/435 "2025-05-08T12:13:56Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I, instead, took the passive aggressive method. I can sealion with the best, if I choose. She had parked in a clearly marked reserved parking space (reserved, that is, for me, specifically by my employer). So I parked my sizeable truck in a way to block her but allow other traffic past. > > I then left to go grocery shopping. I returned to find the lady absolutely irate at my insolence. The cherry on top is that her parking ticket payment period (ie, you have X minutes after you pay to leave) had expired. So she then had to go and find the building management in order to pay extra plus a fine to extend her ticket expiry. Damn, man. I prefer @Alessan’s method. * * * > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s hardly hidden. There’s a difference between attributing malice to Nazis, and thinking that Nazis don’t think like humans. There’s a difference between attributing malice to Hitler and those actively working for him, and the entire German - or American -population. You aren’t going to know how to stop fascism if you don’t understand what motivates some people to support it, and others to go along with it rather than actively oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/436 "2025-05-08T12:41:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m going to guess that Zee actually was blocking the Black people from getting credit, and treating them as incompetent. Why on Earth would you guess that? I’ve seen absolutely zero evidence for that, and the people involved with the tour didn’t say that. The internal chat messages posted by that CFH guy show no evidence that anyone involved was thinking this before it became profitable to. How is that different than “I’m going to guess Abrego Garcia actually was an MS13 member”? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because the point of those racist insults was to drive home that Zee was abusing her White privilege. So, it’s OK to be exceedingly racist, using gendered and racialized insults, as long as you’ve decided your target deserves it? What the fuck? I’m gonna take the hot take that _even if Zee **was** abusing her white privilege_, the solution would be to challenge her on that, not to get even _more_ racist. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Or to put it another way, there’s some famous quote about trying to avoid insulting people accidentally, you should only do it on purpose. Zee was, apparently, routinely insulting people accidentally. I mean, _some people who were uninvolved with the event_ and who were butthurt about it decided to spin that narrative, and then spineless influencers jumped on board to throw Zee under the bus once their communities demanded they do so. We have less than zero evidence of Zee actually “routinely insulting people”, accidentally or otherwise. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > This speaker was insulting Zee very much on purpose. So it’s a lot less remarkable. Intent general makes a crime _worse_. That’s why Murder in the First Degree is a lot _more_ remarkable than Manslaughter, not less. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/437 "2025-05-08T14:30:31Z")
Murder is more remarkable than manslaughter. But really obvious full-blown insults are less remarkable than unintended insults, because no one learns anything from having them pointed out. Everyone already knows they are sitting there in a hot steaming pile. Anyway, I’m not willing to spend the time to actually check the background of this story, so I’ll shut up and let people who know more continue the conversation. I do have one final question: was the racism of that black woman actionable by anyone who might have called it out? That is, did they have to decide whether to keep working with her, or anything of that ilk? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/438 "2025-05-08T14:41:17Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because the point of those racist insults was to drive home that Zee was abusing her White privilege. Before you go, could you clarify this sentence please? Are you indeed saying that racist insults are acceptable or warranted in some circumstances? If so, which? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/439 "2025-05-08T15:47:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > , have you heard of ‘steelmanning’? It’s the opposite of strawmanning, where you try to interpret someone’s argument or position in the most sympathetic light possible. Your reply about Ice’s rant seems to be doing something of the sort, and I’m curious whether you’d try to do that for anyone making a vaguely-racist rant, or only someone you feel is sympathetic/on your side politically? I don’t find that person sympathetic. And I have no idea whether I agree with her politically, except on the one specific issue that Zee should have stayed out of that discussion group. I think multiple people in that discussion were behaving badly; including both Zee and the woman who attacked her. I’m also extremely dubious that this one specific group can be taken as representative of the Left in general. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/440 "2025-05-08T16:22:52Z")
Acceptable? To whom? I wouldn’t use them, and think they are counter productive in all the discussions i get into. Warranted? I guess it depends on your goals. Many people use racist insults in many circumstances. I see racist comments about Black people pretty frequently. (More frequently than i see racist comments about White people, certainly.) My guess is that it depends on your target audience whether that’s an effective form of communication or not. Anyway, i wasn’t trying to say she was right to make racist comments, but i was trying to understand the context and guess her motives in doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=23)