# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/881 "2026-09-04T15:08:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So bringing this back to the ADL - clearly the phrase anti-Zionist does not imply opposition to the very existence of the state of Israel in all cases. To many in today’s environment it is opposition to the actions of the current government. This is intentional obfuscation by anti-Semitic anti-Zionists who are looking for cover for their clearly odious positions. I agree with you about the way the terms get used by random people, but I view that as a serious problem that needs to be addressed, not as something we should accept and contribute to. That’s why I think it is important to point out the things that AOC does that set her apart from anti-Semitic anti-Zionists. _ **She** _ clearly thinks it’s important too, because she makes the distinction even when it costs her politically to do so. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/882 "2026-09-04T15:33:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > even when it costs her politically to do so. I appreciate her position but it is also very politically necessary for her to do, not costly. A separate subject though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/883 "2026-09-04T15:34:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I appreciate her position but it is also very politically necessary for her to do, not costly Breaking with the DSA _does_ have a cost for her. You can argue (and I would) that the benefits outweigh the cost; that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a cost. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/884 "2026-09-04T15:43:13Z")
Meh. If she does try for the Democratic presidential nomination, and most not only expect she will but that has a real chance of getting it, the DSA will 100% line up behind her. Her convincing some elements that she is not against Israel per se but against some things it is doing and an advocate for Palestinian existence as well as Israel’s … is OTOH critical to get more than that lane alone. But more than this belongs elsewhere … ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/885 "2026-09-04T16:06:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Johanna](#): > > > > Jews don’t control Zionism any more > > Who the fuck are you to say so? That’s something for us to decide, not you. Fuck off. Ooof… I didn’t read that as something warranting this kind of response. It’s no secret that American Christian Nationalists are eschatological in their support for Zionism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/886 "2026-09-04T17:15:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s no secret that American Christian Nationalists are eschatological in their support for Zionism. I agree, and it’s disgusting - I’ve posted about that plenty of times. Pretending that this is what defines Zionism is the height of ethnocentric idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/887 "2026-09-04T17:25:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The #3 world power is engaged in _actual_ ethnic cleansing and genocide of the remnants of the Ukrainian people who survived their last attempt to cleanse the east of Ukraine. Not only do anti-Zionists ignore the issue, they almost universally _blame Ukraine and the US for provoking Russia into a perfectly understandable defensive response to “nAtO aGgReSsIoN”._ Huh? All the people i know who are opposed to Israel actions regarding Palestinians also oppose Russian actions regarding the Ukraine. And also, I’m clearly less certain of the precise meaning of “Zionism” than a lot of posters here, who are all certain, and also disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/888 "2026-09-04T17:30:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Huh? All the people i know who are opposed to Israel actions regarding Palestinians also oppose Russian actions regarding the Ukraine. Do they _really_? Like, here’s what the DSA has to say: > **[On Russia's Invasion of Ukraine - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)](https://www.dsausa.org/statements/on-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/)** > > The Democratic Socialists of America condemns Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and demands immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis. We stand in solidarity with the working classes of Ukraine and Russia who will undoubtedly bear the... If you just read this part, you might think that they are on Ukraine’s side: _The Democratic Socialists of America condemns Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and demands immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis._ But then you read a little further and get to the victim blaming: _DSA reaffirms our call for the US to withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict._ No one who wants the US to withdraw from NATO or who parrots the Putinist lie that the war in Ukraine is caused by “NATO expansion” is actually pro-Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/889 "2026-09-04T17:31:36Z")
He specifically said ’ Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel’, as cited in his Wiki page I linked to before. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/890 "2026-09-04T17:39:42Z")
Sounds like one of many good reasons not to vote Likud. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/891 "2026-09-04T19:33:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Pretending that this is what defines Zionism is the height of ethnocentric idiocy. And yet, Netanyahu has repeatedly played cynical footsie with them: [Benjamin Netanyahu calls evangelicals Israel’s 'closest allies' | The Jerusalem Post](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-882058) There’s a common maxim about being careful with whom you keep company. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/892 "2026-09-04T19:49:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And yet, Netanyahu has repeatedly played cynical footsie with them You can add that to the very long list of reasons that I find Netanyahu to be a piece of shit, right behind his fascistic attempt to neuter the courts with his Judicial Reform Bill. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > There’s a common maxim about being careful with whom you keep company. Something about a Hamasnik at the table making eleven Hamasniks? ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/893 "2026-09-04T21:04:06Z")
I have long understood Zionism to be “This land belongs to the Jews because God says so”. Have I been mistaken all this time? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/894 "2026-09-04T21:13:46Z")
I do not think all Zionists were religiously or politically motivated. Some were trying to escape pogroms and anti-semitism in places like Poland. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/895 "2026-09-04T22:25:41Z")
> [@zoo](#): > > Have I been mistaken all this time? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/896 "2026-09-04T22:35:09Z")
> [@zoo](#): > > Have I been mistaken all this time? Indeed, you have, but you’re not alone; that mistaken belief is very pervasive. It’s led to a dog whistle that used to be used by Neo-Nazis but whose usage is much more prevalent now, demonstrated here by a vitriolic antisemite: > [https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-antisemitic-meme-has-jews-claiming-items-promised-3000-years-ago/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-antisemitic-meme-has-jews-claiming-items-promised-3000-years-ago/) > [@](#): > > The new trope is intended to mock and trivialize the religious and historical ties Jews have to the land of Israel, which form a core element of Israel’s ongoing conflict with the Palestinians, CyberWell said. It implies that Jews manipulate ancient claims to assert dominance, making the phrase shorthand for illegitimacy, greed, and delusion. > > One widely shared video posted on Instagram by Mohamed Hadid to his 1.5 million followers shows Jews claiming lawn chairs, sandwiches, watches and a baby, and concludes with a Hasidic Jew stating, “I was promised six million followers on TikTok 3,000 years ago,” an oblique reference to the six million Jews murdered during the Holocaust. This is another in the many strategies that anti-Semitic anti-Zionists use to try and delegitimize Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2026, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/897 "2026-09-04T23:40:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is another in the many strategies that anti-Semitic anti-Zionists use to try and delegitimize Israel. To be fair, it is likely promulgated even more by the Christian Zionists that @Johanna was possibly alluding to (albeit hard to know). There is no small segment of Evangelicals who see Israel as a precondition for end times, though too bad Jews there who do not end up accepting Christ. Belief in a Jewish state of Israel as Biblical prophecy is MUCH bigger among Evangelical Christians than it ever was among Jews. @zoo early Jewish Zionists were _overwhelmingly_ secular. In contrast many religious Jews were anti-Zionist! Partly in reaction to the secular character of the movement and partly out of the similar (not sane or same though) reading of end times … why speed end times up?! And early Reform reaction was against Zionism on grounds that Judaism is a religion not a nationality and fearing feeding the dual loyalty trope. Fun fact: there are more members of Christians United for Israel than Jews in Israel. @Johanna may have a point by the numbers anyway! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/898 "2026-09-05T00:06:06Z")
To expand @zoo - the old school Jewish religious view about the Messiah and the Messianic Age is very different than the Christian one: for those who really believed the story is that a human being of David’s line will, inspired by God but as a political leader, gather the exiled Jewish people back to the Land of Israel, rebuild the Temple, restore Torah observance, and usher in an era of universal peace and knowledge of God. No Messiah led by God leading? that was blasphemy. It was _not_ to be on our timetable but God’s! Note there has been a religious movement arguing that it is God’s will, heading by a Rabbi Kook. Kid you not. NOT mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/899 "2026-09-05T00:40:10Z")
Even without this Messianic stuff, some Zionists _were_ political. Then you also had Zionists who wanted to fuck over Arab nationalists and/or take over Israel (Palestine). [And people like Ben-Gurion absolutely did end up in positions of power in Israel, leading to lasting consequences.] But there were left-wing Zionists who opposed them. Complaining about “Zionists” does not really pin down whom or what someone has a problem with. FWIW the only party in the current Israeli government with “Zionist” in their name is the Religious Zionist Party, a bunch of far-right, racist bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/900 "2026-09-05T01:30:10Z")
Not too long before the current war on Gaza, the only time I heard anyone railing on Zionists or Zionism, it was inevitably some crank who believed in antisemitic conspiracy theories, e.g. a secret Jewish cabal in charge of things. It honestly seemed like a slur. I never really had heard of anyone claiming that term for themselves. But then, soon after this, I saw a lot of self-professed Zionists taking a very pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian stance. And I think a lot of others saw that, too. What I tend to see now are people decrying those people, mixed in with some of the cranks and other antisemitic people fanning the flames and taking advantage of the situation to slip antisemitic things by. They take advantage of people’s righteous anger. I try to point it out when I see it happening, while also not damning people for being against the genocide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=46)