# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/941 "2026-09-09T11:48:59Z")
They aren’t the same thing, but there’s a really big overlap. Religion and culture get muddied all the time, too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/942 "2026-09-09T12:09:31Z")
“Muslim” is not an ethnicity, idiot. It’s not even a collective set of related ethnicities, the way “Jewish” more-or-less is. There are certainly Islamic-majority countries you _could_ have picked where “ethnostate” is an accurate descriptor - Malaysia and Turkey come to mind - but you were so triggered by the words “Islamic Republic” you picked one of the most ethnically diverse ones. Like I said - funniest thing I’ve read all day (even though today’s SMBC was hilarious). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/943 "2026-09-09T12:09:38Z")
Cite that I said that? I was just mocking your stupidity. Ethnostate are wrong, as are states based on religion. Queue the “what about…?”. Anything but discuss Israeli atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/944 "2026-09-09T12:43:24Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Cf. in Israel, aren’t there different ethnic groups who are Jewish but still (or especially because of it) hate each other’s guts? No? Where’d you pull that idea out of? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/945 "2026-09-09T12:55:18Z")
Israel does have different ethnic groups. And there are political parties loosely based on those ethnic groups. And there are sometimes political differences between the Ashkenazi and the Sephardim. And I’ve heard that the Africans sometimes face discrimination and charges of not being “real Jews”, although the official stance is that they are, and that’s the position of Israelis I’ve met. But I’ve never heard of any consistent “hating each other’s guts”. The gut-hating in Israel is mostly between Israelis and Palestinians, as best as i can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/946 "2026-09-09T14:01:47Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > Sounds like an ethnostate to me. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/947 "2026-09-09T20:29:44Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > That says you have to be Muslim, which does not really narrow down your ethnic group. Yup. Pakistan’s current President (a Shi`a Muslim) is from the Baloch tribe of Zardari, historically linked with the ancient Iranian Medes and Parthians. The Prime Minister is a Punjabi Kashmiri (and is Sunni). The Chief Justice of the Federal Shariat Court (also Sunni) is from a Bengali family. They’ve all got very different ancestral languages and ethnic backgrounds. Calling Pakistan an “ethnostate” because it’s (nearly) all Muslim is like calling the Vatican (whose citizen population includes individuals of Italian, Filipino, Thai and Nigerian descent) an “ethnostate” because it’s all Catholic. (Heck, Muslim Pakistan isn’t even as **religiously** monolithic as the Christian Vatican, because it includes Sunni and Shi`a along with some tiny Hindu, Christian and Ahmadi minorities, whereas the Vatican doesn’t even have any Protestants.) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/948 "2026-09-10T04:06:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > Cf. in Israel, aren’t there different ethnic groups who are Jewish but still (or especially because of it) hate each other’s guts? > > No? Where’d you pull that idea out of? I pulled it out of, this person told me a story, not about Israel specifically, but he was some kind of Ashkenazi Jew, I believe Galician, and the story was that a family member of his wanted to marry some other kind of Jew, (Litvak?) and this was apparently really, really bad, as in it would have been less scandalous to go out with a Muslim or Christian or atheist. I dio not recall the exact ethnic groups involved, but it was absolutely a real-life case of “The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front” > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The gut-hating in Israel is mostly between Israelis and Palestinians, as best as i can tell. The story in question took place outside of Israel, so it may well not apply at all. I apologize. Though, I have heard that religious and secular Jews in Israel do hate each other’s guts. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/949 "2026-09-10T04:35:39Z")
I mean, I’ve heard of Italian Catholic families and Irish Catholic families being distraught at the idea of a mixed marriage (between those two ethnic groups). I grew up where those were the two must coming ethnic groups, fwiw. But i wouldn’t say that the Irish Catholics and the Italian Catholics hate each other’s guts. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/950 "2026-09-10T13:23:28Z")
You know who Pakistan’s first ambassador to the United Nations was? Leopold Weiss from Lviv (better known as Muhammad Asad). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/951 "2026-09-10T14:27:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Italian Catholic families and Irish Catholic families being distraught at the idea of a mixed marriage (between those two ethnic groups). I grew up where those were the two must coming ethnic groups, fwiw. But i wouldn’t say that the Irish Catholics and the Italian Catholics hate each other’s guts. I’m a child of such a “mixed” marriage. I’ve met many more. It was definitely a thing in my generation. They love each other, you kidding? The latest generations’ ethnic feelings have by now been almost completely subsumed into general American homogenization, breakfast cereals and all. "_No more Rice Krispies?!"_ My avatar pic, Joan Baez, is a comparable mix of Italic and Celtic. The two were once one: Proto-Italo-Celtic was a thing. Lately they’ve been rejoining. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/952 "2026-09-10T15:54:15Z")
Actors, too. Robert DiNiro and Valerie Bertinelli for example. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/953 "2026-09-10T16:56:34Z")
But there was a time when that kind of marriage was a huge deal to the families. And as you point out, that’s not because there’s some rabid insurmountable hated between the groups. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/954 "2026-09-10T18:27:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s always funny when an individual person thinks they get to decide what words mean, when it’s always been, and will always be, the users of words en masse who decide what they mean. Anti-Zionists have as much right to define Zionism as Republicans have to define socialism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/955 "2026-09-10T18:31:38Z")
What’s your point? I don’t see how that conflicts with my post. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/956 "2026-09-10T19:00:34Z")
“Zionism” has been so distorted by anti-Zionists that I don’t think it’s definition should be handed over to “user of words en masse.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2026, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/957 "2026-09-10T19:12:43Z")
It’s not about should, it’s about how language works. And what you said goes pretty much exactly the same in reverse for the definition of anti Zionism. But it’s usage that defines definition - that’s language, no matter what anyone personally thinks about a particular definition. I’m not claiming that any particular definition is right or wrong - I’m claiming that usage varies widely, and thus definitions vary widely. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/958 "2026-09-11T09:11:49Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > “Zionism” has been so distorted by anti-Zionists that I don’t think it’s definition should be handed over to “user of words en masse.” It’s not really just the anti-Zionists who see it that way. The term Zionism has attached to the anti-Gazan crowd. If people want to keep that from becoming the definition in the wider world, they need to go out and say “I’m a Zionist, yet I do not support the Gazan genocide.” Just like Christians can’t whine about being assumed to be anti-LGBT bigots. We just have to go out there and say “I’m a Christian, and trans rights are human rights.” Disavow the Zionists who are pro-genocide. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/959 "2026-09-11T14:45:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > they need to go out and say “I’m a Zionist, yet I do not support the Gazan genocide.” Do they need to say “genocide” in your book? Is that the litmus test? Not saying you do but to some it is. Hence the relevance of this previous post: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > you can loudly denounce Israel for its ongoing systematic slaughter of innocent civilians in the service of ethic cleansing. All that Certain People will take from that is that you didn’t say “genocide” and therefore you’re basically Smotrich. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/960 "2026-09-11T21:17:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s always funny when an individual person thinks they get to decide what words mean, when it’s always been, and will always be, the users of words en masse who decide what they mean. “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” iiandyiiii-Dumpty has spoken. [![](https://wallpapers.com/images/hd/humpty-dumpty-pictures-1200-x-900-kk6o1wwxau699b5s.jpg) ](https://wallpapers.com/images/hd/humpty-dumpty-pictures-1200-x-900-kk6o1wwxau699b5s.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=49)