# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/981 "2026-09-14T14:05:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > can one condemn the unnecessary death and destruction in Gaza while not calling it a genocide? Yes. “Genocide” has a specific legal definition and individuals in full agreement that the Israeli government is engaged in wanton disregard for life with needless death and destruction, and even an intent to displace a group of people (ethnic cleansing), can honestly disagree on whether there is a “specific intent to destroy” the group, the definition of the international crime of “genocide.” My _own_ take is that there are elements in power in the current Israeli government that want genocide but the overall intent is wanting to eliminate threat (Hamas and any other) with complete disregard for the innocent lives cost in pursuit of the goal. _Bibi’s_ intent may very well be to have the external threat be the focus so the public is distracted from his crimes and to preserve his hold on power a bit longer. That is unnecessary death and destruction that I wholeheartedly and absolutely condemn. It is also in my mind unlikely to result in a good result for Israel itself. And hopefully not for Bibi. I wouldn’t argue with those who use that word in protest though. They do lose me though when try to insist upon the word as a litmus test. And when it is used with complete ignorance that “from the river to the sea” is a call for genocide, and that Hamas and others are for genocide, I do have to swallow hard. An American _politician_ who uses the word in regard to Israel also loses me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/982 "2026-09-14T14:06:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > taking pains to define the meaning of “zionist” seems intellectually dishonest If this is directed at me, where did I do this? I explicitly said that definitions varied widely! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/983 "2026-09-14T14:10:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My _own_ take is that there are elements in power in the current Israeli government that want genocide but the overall intent is wanting to eliminate threat (Hamas and any other) with complete disregard for the innocent lives cost in pursuit of the goal. Do you think the “overall intent” also includes the removal of Palestinians from Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/984 "2026-09-14T14:27:25Z")
I think that the goal is eliminating any substantial threat and that if they believe that is what it takes to achieve it then they will do that. In the West Bank OTOH settlers are being enabled to engage in ethnic cleansing not out of a desire for security at any cost, but out of an expansionist mindset. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/985 "2026-09-14T14:31:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If this is directed at me, where did I do this? I explicitly said that definitions varied widely! > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s how language works! If, say, 500 million speakers of that language use a particular word in a particular way, guess what? That’s now one of the definitions of that word! I swear I’m not trying to be the language police guy, but this is how we ended up with the word “literally” meaning “figuratively”. Among other similar linguistic crimes and misdemeanors. Of course language evolves. But appeals to 500 million using words incorrectly doesn’t make it right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/986 "2026-09-14T14:32:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think that the goal is eliminating any substantial threat and that if they believe that is what it takes to achieve it then they will do that. “If they believe…” It looks to me like they do believe that. Do you think they believe that? My understanding is that genocide’s definition is not predicated on whether it’s a means or an end. I want to eliminate an ethnic group from an area because I think it’s the only way for me to be safe, the “because” doesn’t matter. I’m wanting genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/987 "2026-09-14T14:32:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > this is how we ended up with the word “literally” meaning “figuratively”. Among other similar linguistic crimes and misdemeanors. Oh man, you really just lost my sympathy :). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/988 "2026-09-14T14:32:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Saying you don’t care about definitions of “genocide” because you’re not remotely an expert, but taking pains to define the meaning of “zionist” seems intellectually dishonest, at the very least. _They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert._ ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/989 "2026-09-14T14:34:35Z")
Not asking defensively, just curious who “they” refers to, in your own words? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/990 "2026-09-14T14:35:02Z")
Anti-Zionists, in this context. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/991 "2026-09-14T14:37:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh man, you really just lost my sympathy :). Too much? Yeah… I took a risk. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/992 "2026-09-14T14:37:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > People throwing it around casually, and very often intentionally to get a reaction, should be called on to explain what they mean and why. …I’ve _never_ thrown the term around casually. I’ve never thrown the term around to “get a reaction.” In multiple threads on these boards I’ve made the case for genocide. I’ve done it in threads you’ve participated in, and you _casually_ dismissed it. I’m not in the business of policing language. I don’t care if you call it a genocide or not. But almost every humanitarian agency on the ground is calling it a genocide. A broad consensus of genocide scholars agrees. There is a case for genocide currently before the International Court of Justice. The case was strong enough the court ordered a number of provisional orders against Israel to prevent genocide: _those orders were ignored_. A reminder of exactly what it was that they ignored: > [@from the wiki summary](#): > > (1) The State of Israel shall, in accordance with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this convention, in particular: > > 1. killing members of the group; > 2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > 3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and > 4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > > (2) The State of Israel shall ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit any acts described in point 1 above; > > (3) The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip; > > (4) The State of Israel shall take immediate and effective measures to enable the provision of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance to address the adverse conditions of life faced by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip; > > (5) The State of Israel shall take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of Article II and Article III of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide against members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip; > > (6) The State of Israel shall submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order within one month as from the date of this Order. > **[South Africa's genocide case against Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel)** > > The Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) is an ongoing case that was brought before the International Court of Justice on 29 December 2023 by South Africa regarding Israel's conduct in the Gaza Strip during the Gaza war, that resulted in a humanitarian crisis and mass killings. South Africa alleged that Israel had committed and was committing genocide in Gaza, contravening the Genocide Convention, inc... So the very _least_ I’m asking of you is to treat accusations of Israel committing genocide in Gaza in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/993 "2026-09-14T14:37:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Anti-Zionists, in this context. I appreciate the good-faith response to that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/994 "2026-09-14T14:38:07Z")
Whatever. You said something false about me, so I corrected it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/995 "2026-09-14T14:42:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So the very _least_ I’m asking of you is to treat accusations of Israel committing genocide in Gaza in good faith. tl;dr Let me ask you something… in good faith… If the ICC comes back with a ruling that Israel did not commit genocide in Gaza, will you “in good faith” stop making this accusation? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/996 "2026-09-14T14:42:59Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In multiple threads on these boards I’ve made the case for genocide. No, you haven’t; you gesticulated in the vague direction of something one international org or another said, _casually dismissing_ all criticism of their methodology with empty appeals to authority. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is a case for genocide currently before the International Court of Justice. The case was strong enough the court ordered a number of provisional orders against Israel to prevent genocide: _those orders were ignored_. The court said “if you are doing these things, you shouldn’t; we will look into whether you are or are not at a later time”. Israel didn’t ignore that; they weren’t doing those things, and they still aren’t. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So the very _least_ I’m asking of you is to treat accusations of Israel committing genocide in Gaza in good faith When I judge that those accusations come in good faith, I will treat them as if they do. Until then, I will treat them with the respect and seriousness that they deserve. The fact that you’re still linking the South African case, where they’re quoting fucking _soccer players and musicians_ to demonstrate intent on the behalf of the government, demonstrates quite clearly to me that you are either continuing not to operate in good faith, or you are just _that_ mentally deficient. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/997 "2026-09-14T14:43:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Let me ask you something… in good faith… If the ICC comes back with a ruling that Israel did not commit genocide in Gaza, will you “in good faith” stop making this accusation? I can 100% guarantee you he won’t; he will find some reason to claim that “Zionists” compromised the ICC. The same way his ilk ignore the recent IAEA report on Syria because it doesn’t fit their anti-“Zionist” narrative. > **[IAEA Report Presents Major New Developments on Syria’s Past, Secret Nuclear...](https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/iaea-report-presents-major-new-developments-on-syrias-past-secret-nuclear-program-but-lacks-information-on-weapons-connection)** ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/998 "2026-09-14T14:51:38Z")
Hey Babs, how’s the Iran war going? Still feel good about Trump and Hegseth starting and continuing this war? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/999 "2026-09-14T15:00:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If the ICC comes back with a ruling that Israel did not commit genocide in Gaza, will you “in good faith” stop making this accusation? …the genocide ruling will be made by the ICJ, not the ICC. The ICC may prosecute individuals. They have an arrest warrant out for Netanyahu and Gallant for _the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts._ But this really isn’t a good-faith response to me at all, is it? Because HRW, Amnesty, etc, aren’t calling this a genocide based ultimately on the ICJ ruling, they are calling it a genocide _now_ because they’ve examined the evidence, they are on the ground, and they are seeing what is happening, and that isn’t going to change in five years’ time when the ICJ finally makes their ruling because by then _it will be too late_. One of the reasons why it’s important to consider it a genocide now are the reasons I outlined in the other thread: _contracting parties are required to prevent and punish the crime of genocide_. What we can’t ignore is that there is a sustained campaign led both by the United States of America and Israel to _dismantle international law_. They are doing that by sanctioning officials, campaigns to _replace_ officials, and that in five years’ time when the court actually make their ruling there is a good chance _they would have been successful_. > **[US announces new sanctions on ICC president and top lawyer](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cnvnl0elz47o)** > > The Trump administration has vowed to dismantle the international court "brick by brick". > **[What does the Trump Administration Statement on Dismantling the ICC Really Mean?](https://www.justsecurity.org/147012/trump-administration-statement-dismantling-icc/)** > > International law experts respond to the Trump administration's campaign to "dismantle" the International Criminal Court. So I’m not going to say what my reaction will be in five years’ time if what we know now as international humanitarian law has been demolished. All I know now is that the consensus among people that matter is very clear right now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/1000 "2026-09-14T15:01:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, you haven’t; you gesticulated in the vague direction of something one international org or another said, casually dismissing all criticism of their methodology with empty appeals to authority. …do you condemn the killing of the fifteen paramedics and aid workers on March the 25th, 2025 by the IDF? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=51)