# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/101 "2025-04-10T18:20:03Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m saying that I’m not going to discuss transwomen in sports, because it’s an issue that transphobes are using to pass other anti-trans legislation. My baseline would be that they are allowed, with some exceptions based on the sport and the level, and that could easily be handled at the local (ultra-local, each school) level. > > Instead, you have the president saying that the state of Maine has to do something about it, and you’re being pitted because you decided to take a nuanced position. No nuance is needed for this non-issue – allow transwomen to compete through high school, with some exceptions handled locally. The NCAA and higher already have policies and procedures for this, so it has already been taken care of. This is well written. People should re read it. As for the “how many trans-people in California” slippery slope, it sets up the next Evil Goebbels / Steven Miller question: "Prove it. What are their names? What are their addresses? Can I program that easier into Garmin or Tom-Tom for our KKK “ICE Teams” to go pick them up enmasse for incarceration and torture? Don’t worry, they’re with the government. They’d never hurt You. This is all for the protection of zee Arayan Race… Vee must be Pure..! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/102 "2025-04-10T18:21:27Z")
Whatever. I’m not getting pulled into this conversation. It’s beneath us all at the SDMB to take any position other than, “there’s only a handful of transwomen who want to compete. Our baseline is let them play. Anything else is handing the high ground to the transphobes.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/103 "2025-04-10T18:30:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Whatever. I’m not getting pulled into this conversation. You’re welcome to stop lecturing me or insinuating that I’m transphobic at any time. > [@RitterSport](#): > > there’s only a handful of transwomen who want to compete. …that has absolutely nothing with any of the objections I’ve made to trans women playing in women’s sports, so I don’t really understand why you keep bringing it up. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Our baseline is let them play. Why would our baseline for which team people play on have _anything to do with gender identity_ when the reason for splitting sports by sex _has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity_? That’s like saying, “some people with blonde hair want to play women’s sports; our baseline is to let them”. The rational baseline is that trans women _who have transitioned medically_ to the point where they _they don’t possess an advantage over cis women_ should be allowed to play women’s sports. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/104 "2025-04-10T18:30:56Z")
I think that MY conclusion from all this is that Americans have an unhealthy obsession with sports. Seriously, who gives a shit? What do sports have to do with real life? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/105 "2025-04-10T18:35:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You’re welcome to stop lecturing me or insinuating that I’m transphobic at any time. I’m not insinuating that you’re transphobic, only that they’re banging a drum and you’re marching to it. It’s beneath you to even think about banning transwomen from sports – to a first approximation, there aren’t any. To a finer approximation, they’re just fine playing on the team. To the individual level, you don’t know enough to opine. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/106 "2025-04-10T18:35:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that MY conclusion from all this is that Americans have an unhealthy obsession with sports. And my uncles with Maccabi Haifa season passes don’t? 😛 One time when flying from Spain to Israel in the middle of the night, I shared a plane with a youth soccer team that was returning home after an international match, and two of the dads got into a fistfight on the plane over one of the kids screwing up at the match. So I think there are sports obsessed people everywhere 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/107 "2025-04-10T18:48:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think that MY conclusion from all this is that Americans have an unhealthy obsession with sports. I’m with you. Without recounting the whole saga- The 76ers (Philadelphia’s pro basketball team) said that if a new arena was not built in Chinatown, they would move to Camden New Jersey. A lot of people protested. Various organizations representing residents and businesses in Chinatown gave presentations at City Council meetings on why the arena would destroy the area and was a very bad idea. The head of the local transit agency said that service to the new arena would cost the city $20 million- each year. The mayor and most of city council voted to approve the arena. At which point, the 76ers revealed that the new arena was only a bargaining chip to get what they had really wanted all the time. I will of course be bringing this up to any one who will listen come next election. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/108 "2025-04-10T19:00:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It has a great deal to do with whether women’s teams are actually going to be overwhelmed by trans players squeezing out the women. Which seems to me to be the underlying theory behind the arguments that say they’re trying to defend women’s sports by refusing to let trans women play them. This is wrong, one is too many. To the vast majority of the population including many if not most in the gay community this is not a real issue it is ludicrous. I have never met another person who was not against it. And yes their may be some rare exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/109 "2025-04-10T19:06:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The rational baseline is that trans women _who have transitioned medically_ to the point where they _they don’t possess an advantage over cis women_ should be allowed to play women’s sports. This is a tricky catch 22 in a lot of places isn’t though? How can a middle or high schooler medically transition enough to satisfy your side without running a foul of the hormone treatments that you want to ban? [https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/02/10/nx-s1-5292390/trump-transgender-gender-affirming-care-hospital](https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/02/10/nx-s1-5292390/trump-transgender-gender-affirming-care-hospital) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/110 "2025-04-10T19:08:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m not insinuating that you’re transphobic, only that they’re banging a drum and you’re marching to it. I’m marching to the beat of my own drum, thank you very much. Instead of gaslighting me about Republicans and what _they_ think, you can address the very simple chain of logic I presented earlier that leads me to conclude that the law as it stands in California is wrong. > [@RitterSport](#): > > It’s beneath you to even think about banning transwomen from sports It’s a good thing I _never said anything like that_, then, isn’t it? I am more opposed to a ban on trans participation in sports than I am to California’s current law. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose between a total ban and California’s total access, I’d have to go with the status quo here. That doesn’t mean I can’t discuss what the law actually is in California and how I feel it fails. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/111 "2025-04-10T19:09:29Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > How can a middle or high schooler medically transition enough to satisfy your side without running a foul of the hormone treatments that you want to ban? Why are you such a disgusting slimy troll? I _don’t_ want to ban hormone treatments, you lying sack of shit. “My side” is liberal Democrats, who support access to gender affirming care. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/112 "2025-04-10T19:10:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So I think there are sports obsessed people everywhere Oh, absolutely, but you have to admit that Americans take it to another level. Especially when it comes to high school and college sports, which don’t really exist elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/113 "2025-04-10T19:12:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “My side” is liberal Democrats, who support access to gender affirming care. Um OK I think you’ll find that most Centrists and Republicans will say that you are taking an extreme position then. Which is what you are determined not to do I thought? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/114 "2025-04-10T19:18:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oh, absolutely, but you have to admit that Americans take it to another level. Especially when it comes to high school and college sports, which don’t really exist elsewhere. You’re certainly not wrong about that, and I can’t say I fully get it myself; I didn’t play sports when I went to high school here, and I wasn’t super involved with the community that’s built around spectating school sports either. But I often notice a trend with this (and other) discussions where someone will argue that something isn’t important, and then at the end reveal that they have a personal distaste for it anyways. In which case, no shit, you don’t think it’s important; maybe we should see how the people who _do_ feel about it. I was a little more into it in college, mostly because of the influence of my now-wife. And my wife, as I mentioned, _was_ super involved in that world, playing soccer and running track. Her sisters all played sports too. It’s something that’s super foundational to her, and she’s as invested in raising our kids to play team sports as I am in teaching our kids Hebrew, for example. So even though this isn’t an issue that’s super important to me, I try to think about it from the perspective of people who _do_ really care about it. And, for better or for worse, high school and college sports are a HUGE part of American communal life. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/115 "2025-04-10T19:45:30Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have never met another person who was not against it. The fact that you have a limited circle of acquaintance has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/116 "2025-04-10T19:50:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But I often notice a trend with this (and other) discussions where someone will argue that something isn’t important, and then at the end reveal that they have a personal distaste for it anyways. In which case, no shit, you don’t think it’s important; maybe we should see how the people who _do_ feel about it. Hey, if you could somehow make it so that only people genuinely invested in women’s sports were allowed to register an opinion on letting trans women compete, I’d be entirely onboard. It would certainly shut _me_ up, but it would also shut up about 95% of the people supporting a ban on trans athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/117 "2025-04-10T20:50:59Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > Um OK I think you’ll find that most Centrists and Republicans will say that you are taking an extreme position then. I think you’ll find that if you check the stats, you are incorrect. Maybe a slight majority of Republicans alone, depending on the poll, but I don’t particularly care about that. > [@Zoobi](#): > > Which is what you are determined not to do No, that’s not really what motivates me. I hold some positions that could be considered extreme, like my personal position on gun control (although, I have the sense to realize that it would be SUICIDAL for Dems to run on my gun control stance, and I sincerely hope they _don’t_). I was pointing out that it’s an extreme position because I was being accused of being a trans genocide supporter for holding it, and if that’s the case then I guess a cool 70% of Democrats support trans genocide, and another 14% don’t know how they feel about it 🙄 > [@Miller](#): > > Hey, if you could somehow make it so that only people genuinely invested in women’s sports were allowed to register an opinion on letting trans women compete, I’d be entirely onboard. Not a bad idea, actually! ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/118 "2025-04-10T21:48:25Z")
> [@Omnibus Evil MFers in the news thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-evil-mfers-in-the-news-thread/983496/2641): > > > [@Omnibus Evil MFers in the news thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/omnibus-evil-mfers-in-the-news-thread/983496/2638): > > > > So yes, this is the centrist position. “Gender medicine works” and “a person can be actually a woman despite having a male body” are minority positions. > > Well, as Newsom said on the podcast, there are some things he supports for reasons of principle, not popularity; and trans access to gender affirming care is one of those positions. It seems here you are agreeing with Aspidistra that gender affirming care is NOT a centrist position. 🤷 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/119 "2025-04-10T22:07:02Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > This is wrong, one is too many. This is silly. The main issue here is that transgender women are people, just like intersex women and other cisgender women are people. All of these people have the same rights to basic human dignity and opportunities for fulfillment. Including the right to live as the gender/orientation/religion/etc. they identify as, and the right to play sports as a person of that identity. Is it reasonable to recognize that there are average physiological differences between certain types of people, based on things like age and weight and size and sex, and to design arbitrary sports competition categories to approximately take such differences into account? Sure it is, depending on the type of sport and competition level. Nobody here is saying it isn’t. Is it reasonable to say that if even one player has some kind of unusual advantage in playing in a certain category according to how they identify, that there should be an ironclad rule banning all such players from that category? No, it absolutely is not. That’s just plain old reflexive transphobia masquerading as concern for cisgender female players. You might as well argue that if even one Sikh soccer player gets some kind of advantage from wearing a turban while heading the ball, then all Sikh players must be prohibited from wearing turbans under all circumstances. “One is too many” is a ridiculous level of draconian absolutism to apply to something as complex and variable as sports competition. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/120 "2025-04-10T22:12:37Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > It seems here you are agreeing with Aspidistra that gender affirming care is NOT a centrist position. Is there a point to this 20 questions routine? If so, can we just skip ahead to it? Here’s an article about a study: > **[New Polling shows Americans divided on gender-affirming care](https://www.alreporter.com/2024/06/18/new-polling-shows-americans-divided-on-gender-affirming-care/)** > > Despite the moral contention surrounding gender change, a significant majority of Americans oppose legislative bans on gender-affirming care for minors. > [@](#): > > Gallup’s survey explored public opinion on these bans through two different questions. One asked generally about bans on “treatments and medical procedures,” while the other specified treatments like “psychological support, hormonal treatments, and medical surgeries” to help minors align with their gender identity. Both versions produced similar results: about one-third of U.S. adults support such bans, while just over six in ten oppose them. > > Republicans, predictably, are more inclined than Democrats and independents to support these bans. On the specific question about banning psychological support and medical treatments, a majority of Republicans (53 percent) favor a ban, compared to far fewer Democrats (25 percent) and independents (34 percent). When the question is framed more generally, Republican support drops to 45 percent, while Democratic and independent opposition remains consistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=7)