# I Pit Babale **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2025, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738 "2025-04-07T14:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/161 "2025-04-11T16:13:34Z")
Yeah, that’s how winning debates and logical arguments work. It’s all about who infuriates the other person enough to make them leave. Deflection is a win!!! Changing the topic is a win. FUCK THAT SHIT ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/162 "2025-04-11T16:20:30Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think you’ve illustrated yet another crucial distinction here, between _amateur_ sports, which are played primarily for the benefit of the players, and may be purely recreational or highly competitive, and _spectator_ sports, which feature the most elite athletes and are of interest to large numbers of people not personally known to the players, and are usually though not necessarily run as for-profit businesses. > > I think everyone agrees that there’s no good reason for either sex or gender segregation at the recreational level, and that there are obvious reasons for it at the professional level. The tricky part is where to draw the line between recreational and spectator sports. The complicating reality is that in American high schools and colleges, some sports are recreational, albeit highly competitive, and some are quasi-professional, but they’re all run by the same athletic department. I fully agree with all you say here, and that’s very well explained. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I am generally OK with the pre-Trump status quo of sorting by gender rather than sex, and see no reason to revisit it unless and until we see empirical evidence that transwomen athletes are experiencing significantly greater success than would be expected in the absence of any physical advantages. I’d certainly prefer that status quo to an outright ban, which is what Republicans are talking about. As I explained, I don’t think it’s a problem if and only if trans people end up dominating women’s sports, and I’m not happy with the California status quo either; but yeah, I definitely am fully aligned with you and others in opposing what Republicans want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/163 "2025-04-11T16:22:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yay. Another actual calling out of transphobic shit got turned into a debate about trans sports. Lil bro, you don’t get to just _declare_ that shit is transphobic. Unfortunately for you. Your problem is that you don’t like my stance, but you lack the intellectual or ideological honesty and fortitude to engage with it in any way, shape, or form. So you squeal that I’m a transphobe and demand that no one engage with me. As you put it: FUCK THAT SHIT. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/164 "2025-04-11T16:24:33Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And I think puzzlegal has a very valid point that a big reason for segregation is that boys don’t want to lose to girls. Otherwise, in the not at all uncommon situation where, for instance, a smallish high school can field enough players to have a boys varsity team, but not a junior varsity, and not a girls team, the JV team could be opened to girls. But this never happens AFAIK. It’s possible. Growing up in the 90s/2000s and only engaging with sports recreationally, though, I’m really not so sure about that. People lost to girls all the time; I don’t think there was ever a big stigma attached to it. Maybe it would be different at a more competitive level. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/165 "2025-04-11T16:24:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, that’s how winning debates and logical arguments work. It’s all about who infuriates the other person enough to make them leave. Deflection is a win!!! Changing the topic is a win. Are you new to the internet? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/166 "2025-04-11T16:25:50Z")
Nobody is “changing the topic”. Check the link in the OP; Babale is being pitted for a post specifically about his position on trans people in sports, a post where he also said > The current administration is trying to shove trans people back in the figurative closet. This is incredibly fucked up, represents decades worth of progress lost, and will very likely cost lives. Babale is not Aspidistra. He has consistently supported the trans rights position on every other issue. His disagreement on this minor point is a disagreement on a minor point, not (as it so often is) a Trojan Horse for an agenda of erasing trans identity. As I said at the very beginning, this Pitting was stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/167 "2025-04-11T16:26:49Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Nobody is “changing the topic” In BigT’s mind, “the topic” is listing ways in which I am transphobic, and anyone who isn’t doing that is “changing the topic”. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/168 "2025-04-11T17:13:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In BigT’s mind, “the topic” is listing ways in which I am transphobic, and anyone who isn’t doing that is “changing the topic”. You may or may not be transphobic, but you certainly are providing arguments to bolster the transphobes views against us. John Oliver had a great episode about trans people in sports and one of the things he pointed out was, “It does seem like right now, you can say anything you want about trans people as long as you tag on “in sports” after it. “I don’t think trans women should be allowed… in sports.” “I don’t think trans women are women… in sports.” But it is noticeable just how fast the “in sports” part can drop off, once people feel permission has been granted.” That’s what you and others who share your views are doing, providing a way to delegitimize us as women in the eyes of the public and to justify taking away our rights in other respects. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/169 "2025-04-11T17:24:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s not OK because sex _is the very characteristic by which we divide sports_. I think you’re trying to draw a hard sharp bright line when there isn’t one. Because sex – even sex, not just gender – is not a bright line thing in humans. It really isn’t. > [@Babale](#): > > People lost to girls all the time That’s a really interesting sentence construction. Did it not occur to you that it implies that only the boys are “people” and the girls aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/170 "2025-04-11T17:47:15Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That’s a really interesting sentence construction. Did it not occur to you that it implies that only the boys are “people” and the girls aren’t? Good one! That’s hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/171 "2025-04-11T17:50:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I happen to have been in school during the odd transition when women and girls were fighting for the right to play on more sports, but there weren’t many leagues for women and girls. So a lot of girls ended up playing on boys teams. And the real problem with that wasn’t that the girls were getting hurt. Nor that the girls weren’t the stars – hey, they were happy to be allowed to play. No, the real problem with that was that boys were losing to girls. I played on my high school’s boys’ soccer team, because we didn’t have a girls’ soccer team (we were a small school) and we didn’t even have enough male players for the boys’ team (we were a REALLY small school). I personally was thoroughly mediocre and no threat whatsoever to any male player’s competition success, but our team did in fact win some games over teams with all male players. (And the other female player on our team was quite little and speedy, and a fairly successful striker.) Neither of us female players was ever seriously injured in playing against boys, though we got the usual collection of normal athlete bumps and bruises. Nor was there ever any issue when we all changed clothes in the back of the van on the way to and from the games. We all knew each other well, and the coaches expected us to behave like civilized human beings, so we did. Complete non-issue. So these matters are always going to have to be determined on a case-by-case basis, depending on the particular circumstances of the teams and the players in question. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/172 "2025-04-11T17:53:00Z")
Why do you think that I’m joking? Or, alternatively, why do you want to claim that what I posted was funny, instead of considering it? Habits of language don’t always express what people actually mean. But habits of language say something about meaning, nevertheless. And a refusal to notice the implications of a habit says something in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/173 "2025-04-11T17:54:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why do you think that I’m joking? Or, alternatively, why do you want to claim that what I posted was funny, instead of considering it? I don’t think you’re joking, I think it was a _masterful_ example of what BigT described: > [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, that’s how winning debates and logical arguments work. It’s all about who infuriates the other person enough to make them leave. Deflection is a win!!! Changing the topic is a win. Did _you_ even stop to consider that _some of the people who got beaten by girls were other girls_? Or are _you_ the one with deeply held preconceived notions you struggle to get past? that’s not a serious insinuation, but it has about as much going for it as yours does. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/174 "2025-04-11T17:59:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Did _you_ even stop to consider that _some of the people who got beaten by girls were other girls_? That wouldn’t have been relevant to the discussion, which appeared at that point about whether boys get upset by being beaten by girls. But yes, I did consider it, and rejected that conclusion for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/175 "2025-04-11T18:02:49Z")
I didn’t raise the bar. I just stated the obvious. A quibble on a small message board ain’t enough to change it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/176 "2025-04-11T18:14:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Did _you_ even stop to consider that _some of the people who got beaten by girls were other girls_? That is one of the most bizarre responses i have ever seen. Hole/dig, i guess. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/177 "2025-04-11T18:17:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Did _you_ even stop to consider that _some of the people who got beaten by girls were other girls_? > > That is one of the most bizarre responses i have ever seen. Hole/dig, i guess When you clip out the part where I say that it’s intentionally ridiculous and explain why, I agree that it seems ridiculous 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/178 "2025-04-11T18:19:54Z")
One response to someone pointing out an unpleasant assumption in a post would be, “Heh, good catch. Lemme rephrase that: …” Another response is to get super contemptuous and sarcastic and then suggest that they were deliberately infuriating you to make you leave. There’s one response that’d make me respect the person more for admitting a mistake. There’s another response that makes me think the person’s not gonna be great to have a conversation with. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/179 "2025-04-11T18:28:09Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I didn’t raise the bar. You sure as hell didn’t. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I just stated the obvious. Oblivious. Oblivious is spelled with an “L”. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > A quibble on a small message board ain’t enough to change it. Nope. There isn’t enough torque in any wrench in my tool room that will change the minds of people trying to hurt children trying to become who they were meant to be. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/180 "2025-04-11T18:31:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Good one! That’s hilarious! It’s…really not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738.md?page=10)