I do? You mind spelling it out for me?
This is where Babs pretends he doesn’t read my posts!
Sure:
I have finally kicked the habit of clicking on “view ignored posts”, would you mind telling me who those supposed anti-Zionist supporters of Ukraine are?
Suuuuure, you have…
I think we now understand why Babale doesn’t “see” examples that don’t agree with his worldview.
The two examples offered: AOC and Mamdani. And also assorted members of this very messageboard.
I strongly reject Babale’s position that being against Zionism is definitionally antisemitic, and the selectivity or even exclusively against something when it is the only Jewish state under existential threat has historically not been just “whataboutism” …
There really isn’t that much world concern about very clear ethnic cleansing in China, by Russia, by India, in Sudan where the deaths toll is staggeringly vast (and where the US indirectly supports the RSF by way of the UAE). There wasn’t too much attention by the people “understanding” terror against Israel to American support of Ethiopia which is currently still involved in pretty unambiguous ethnic cleansing while America does business with it, with Turkey against the Kurds … on and on … whereas historically to these folk Israel’s very existence was and is ethnic cleansing.
Being against it everywhere as a matter of principle but defining a nation’s very existence as that, and holding one nation historically to a very different standard than any other? That has historically been supported and catalyzed by antisemitism, to me that is a definite reality.
I am a Zionist AND for the rights of Palestinians. I am against the current ethnic cleansing that the current government not only tacitly supports by the settlers but has engaged in itself. I am for the US withholding support unless actions change. But when those chants include phrases that literally mean cleansing the area of Jews - from the river to the sea - ignorance of its meaning can only excuse some of it.
Yes, absolutely. Plenty of opposition to Israel is driven by antisemitism. But the massive recent increase in opposition to Israel is, IMO, very clearly driven by the documented and reported actions of the Israeli government and military. Babs (and others) are just pretending that Israel’s actions have nothing to do with it.
Agree.
I have exactly one person on permenant ignore, and he only ended up there when he started trolling me by spamming tags @ me and lying repeatedly about my positions, often in the very same thread I offered them up. There is zero value in trying to engage with that poster in good faith.
Great, two perfect examples. AOC is a very harsh critic of Israel, far harsher than I would agree with. But she is also very explicitly NOT anti-Zionist; she avoids using that term and is always very clear about the fact that some criticism of Israel can cross the line and become anti-Semitic. She clarified that she aligns with the NYC DSA and not the National DSA over this issue (I’m disappointed in her decision to rejoin any part of the DSA, but that’s another matter). She’s a great example of an extremely harsh critic of Israel that is not Anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic.
Mamdani on the other hand is not a supporter of Ukraine. When asked about the issue he offers mealymouthed support for Ukraine and condemnation of Russia before pivoting to Israel by arguing that the US doesn’t fund Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. This is not a pro Ukraine position. If the world washed its hands of the invasion by arguing “Well, we aren’t supporting Russia” then Ukraine would be conquered and the Russian project of ethnically cleansing the region through forced relocation and Russification, which began under the USSR, would continue.
Who are you thinking of? I can only think of a couple of posters who are anti-Zionist (oppose the very existence of Israel) and I would absolutely call them anti-Semites. Most of the harshest critics of Israel in this thread or elsewhere are not against the existence of the state of Israel.
Note that Babs has never produced a single quote that I lied about his positions. Not once!
Babs asked for prominent anti-Zionists who support Ukraine – Mamdani clearly qualifies, even if he doesn’t talk about it a lot. He’s said explicitly that he supports Ukraine and condemns the Russian invasion. Whether or not AOC explicitly identifies as anti-Zionist (I couldn’t find any cite one way or the other – it appears she’s leaving that ambiguous), her position has consistently been critical of the Israeli government, accusing them of apartheid and genocide, and she has been a consistent supporter of Ukraine.
@Babale, you blocked me because you didn’t like being asked uncomfortable questions about your support for the Trump/Hegseth Iran war, over and over again. I’m happy to admit that I don’t give up, and I’m a stubborn poster, and I often won’t let things go. That’s why you blocked me. You got sick of dodging my questions. You may pretend it’s something else, but you’re too cowardly to admit it, and too cowardly to talk about the war you so eagerly supported. You haven’t even mentioned it in months!
So I’ll try again, since I know you read my posts – are you still in favor of the war in Iran? Still think it was wise? Still think there’s a good outcome remaining?
@Gyrate (or anyone else), feel free to ask Babs about the war… see if he can answer. He hasn’t even mentioned Iran in months.
It’s good to hear you’re against this sort of thing. At least when other people do it…
Do you also have any views about whether she takes sugar on her porridge?
Huh? I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. The fact that she is a harsh critic of Israel but very careful to avoid terms like ‘anti-Zionist’ and to remain aware that criticism of Israel can cross the line and become anti-Semitic is a good thing that makes her far more responsible than many in this thread.
If you feel I’ve misrepresented your position at some point, bring it up and we can address it, rather than making snide remarks.
Jews don’t control Zionism any more. It’s been hijacked by American Evangelical Christians who exploit it for their own purposes. You can say what you want about the original concept of Zionism, but what there is now isn’t it.
Who the fuck are you to say so? That’s something for us to decide, not you. Fuck off.
She herself is extremely careful to avoid the term anti-Zionist and to avoid implying that Israel shouldn’t exist. That’s not a ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. It was literally a big enough deal for her that she temporarily left the DSA over this argument.
So bringing this back to the ADL - clearly the phrase anti-Zionist does not imply opposition to the very existence of the state of Israel in all cases. To many in today’s environment it is opposition to the actions of the current government.
Specifically in the case of Khalil - the ADL supported his deportation based on his speech - speech which never was hate speech - he protested Israeli actions and espouses a one state solution with “Right to Return” and equal rights … now one can argue that the result of that policy might be no more Israel as a majority Jewish state … but calling it antisemitic hate speech is not justifiable other than as an effort to shut down debate.
The ADL has lost their way.