I Pit Bill Maher

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I remember watching Dennis Miller Live, way back- ie., when it was still on (on HBO). Around 1997, I think.

He had a bit he’d do at the end of the show called “The Big Screen” or something like that, where he’d stand next to a big TV which displayed images of various newsmakers and global events, and make humorous comments on the events. Kind of like vocal captioning.

There was this one episode where John Cleese was his guest. The show was terrible, having Dennis Miller on it, and all, and he spent most of the show toadying up to Cleese (which is understandable). Then he did the Big Screen segment. This was terrible too.

Suddenly, an image of Tibetan monks appeared on the screen. They were flanked by Chinese soldiers. Lightning crackled around my TV- something big was about to happen. My slice of pizza grew warmer in my hand and I tossed it to the ground in shock. A chorus of angels appeared through the ceiling.

On the screen, something amazing happened. Miller opened his mouth, and began to speak. “Chinese troops ensure the demonstration is peaceful before opening fire.”

The audience, mostly silent until now, began to laugh. John Cleese, completely silent until now, totally lost his shit- he laughed so hard he nearly fell off his chair. Slowly, it sank in, as I began to laugh too. Dennis Miller had said something funny. Not just funny. Hilarious.

Strange things began to happen outside. Dogs started mating with cats. The Cubs won the World Series. Although I had just washed my car, it didn’t rain. I looked down at my pizza slice. It had landed cheese side up.

When I awoke the next morning, I realized it must have been a dream. But I watched Dennis Miller for many years afterward, hoping to recapture that one glorious moment. I even watched Monday Night Football with the sound on.

Alas.

Anyway, that’s my defense of Bill Maher- he’s funnier than Dennis Miller.

[Jack_Batty]

@Marley23

As Diogenes noted earlier, [Bill Maher] is anti-vaccination.

So was George Carlin, more or less. He did a bit about drinking the filthy water in whatever city he was playing in order to give his immune system a work-out.

I think that tack – the anti-vaccination thing – is more or less just some offshoot of that line of thinking. That is, I don’t think it’s some fruit-loopy conspiracy theory position but rather one born of cynicism.
As for Bill himself? Smug, smarmy, preening, self-important? Yep. Good. I don’t want some namby-pamby Alan Colmes motherfucker speaking up for this side. Sometimes you need a shit-stirrer in the mix … especially when the mix is so obviously slanted to one side.

I call it the Shodan principle.

[Baldwin]

I like Real Time, when there’s a good panel. Sometimes it devolves to people shouting incoherently at each other, but sometimes it’s a really good, passionate discussion. Maher himself occasionally hits one out of the park, is usually a decent moderator, but really is a crackpot about nutrition and modern medicine. But at least the show gets into stuff that they politely sidestep on the network news shows, and some folks go on there and clearly aren’t used to being publicly called on their bullshit.

But, smugness is never attractive. I generally agree with Maher about religion, but he’s too simplistic about it. A majority of the human race seems to have an inborn tendency to compartmentalize their minds, so that they can deal with most things in a logical way, yet maintain a set of clearly irrational, unsupported beliefs. I don’t have that – or at least I don’t think I do. No religious beliefs, but maybe I have to maintain some kind of faith just to get by day to day – faith that there’s some kind of reason to continue existing. We big-brained superapes have got to be the most conflicted species on the planet.

So, I don’t really understand religious people, but don’t think I’m superior to them. I’ll probably watch Religulous on DVD.

[Hamadryad]

If I didn’t enjoy watching smug, self-satisfied pricks mouth off with no regard at all for their actual expertise in the topic at hand, I wouldn’t read the SDMB.

So yeah, I’m a fan, possibly partially because he’s a smug, self-satisfied prick. Most comedians get a chunk of their shticks from self-effacing humor. Sometimes it’s refreshing to see a comedian start off from a base of “I’m smart as fuck,” rather than, “I’m just slightly-below-average Smitty!”

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@waterj2

Really, I think that by the standards of comedy/commentary shows, he does manage to put forth some good commentary and some decent debate. Unless he goes off on one of his anti-meat or anti-medicine rants.

I agree with you on the anti-meat and anti-med rants, and pitted him here about the latter some time ago. And I’m theist, but I question nearly everything about organized religion, so I appreciate most of his anti-religious jokes. And he lambastes them all on an equal opportunity basis, without giving in to any cultural relativism. In general I like his solidly left wing position. IRL when voting we almost always have to accept one or two personal or position points we don’t like in the person we end up voting for.

He and his show are unique; it’s not quite a talk show, and not quite a comedy show, but I think he veers more towards being a comic.

BTW I think the OP has a great user name. Nicely done!

[Stuffy]

@Jack_Batty

So was George Carlin, more or less. He did a bit about drinking the filthy water in whatever city he was playing in order to give his immune system a work-out.

I think that tack – the anti-vaccination thing – is more or less just some offshoot of that line of thinking. That is, I don’t think it’s some fruit-loopy conspiracy theory position but rather one born of cynicism.

No, he clearly comes off absolutely batshit on that topic. The clearest example I can remember is this past season, Jason Alexander was one of the panelists. I remember that clearly because JA pretty much called him a loon.

[Marley23]

@Jack_Batty

So was George Carlin, more or less. He did a bit about drinking the filthy water in whatever city he was playing in order to give his immune system a work-out.

No, Carlin was doing a routine and making fun of irrational germophobia. Maher, I believe, specifically blames vaccines for causing diseases and autism in particular. That’s usually what “anti-vaccination” means. He thinks vaccinating for diseases is a scam that does more harm than good (if I may attribute the group position to Maher). Carlin, to my knowledge, never said any such thing. At least not in his standup. The bit you’re talking about can be read here.

[Jack_Batty]

@Marley23

No, Carlin was doing a routine and making fun of irrational germophobia. Maher, I believe, specifically blames vaccines for causing diseases and autism in particular. That’s usually what “anti-vaccination” means. He thinks vaccinating for diseases is a scam that does more harm than good (if I may attribute the group position to Maher). Carlin, to my knowledge, never said any such thing. At least not in his standup. The bit you’re talking about can be read here.

I guess I haven’t heard his entire screed on this, but I can at least see the thread of thought between the two positions, but then again I guess I’m anti-vaccine, because I adamantly refuse to get flu-shots. And yet I haven’t had the flu in years … if not decades.

[gonzomax]

I like" Real Time? although sometimes Bill does not really understand the issues that well. He has a panel that sometimes has interesting views . I think social issues and economics could use a bit of humor. I make it a point to watch his show.

[Marley23]

@Jack_Batty

I guess I haven’t heard his entire screed on this, but I can at least see the thread of thought between the two positions, but then again I guess I’m anti-vaccine, because I adamantly refuse to get flu-shots. And yet I haven’t had the flu in years … if not decades.

I see the link you’re drawing, it just isn’t the same thing. Carlin’s “on” and you’re not supposed to take his comments seriously. Maher apparently really does think vaccines make you sick. I haven’t had a flu shot in years either, but that’s because I’m not in one of the vulnerable age groups and it doesn’t seem necessary. If and when I have kids, I won’t be holding them out of measles vaccinations and such.

[muttrox]

Maher describes himself as agnostic.

I guess that brings us to the topic of “Religulous,” which I read as this effort to get agnostics and atheists out of the closet in American society.

That’s certainly one of the goals. I don’t use the word “atheist” about myself, because I think it mirrors the certitude I’m so opposed to in religion. What I say in the film is that I don’t know. I don’t know what happens when you die, and all the religious people who claim they do know are being ridiculous. I know that they don’t know any more than I do. They do not have special powers that I don’t possess. When they speak about the afterlife with such certainty and so many specifics, it just makes me laugh.

People can tell you, “Oh yes, when you get to Paradise there are 72 virgins, not 70, not 75.” Or they say, “Jesus will be there sitting at the right hand of the Father, wearing a white robe with red piping. There will be three angels playing trumpets.” Well, how do you know this? It’s just so preposterous. So, yes, I would like to say to the atheists and agnostics, the people who I call rationalists, let’s stop ceding the moral high ground to the people who believe in the talking snake. Let’s have our voices heard and be in the debate. Let’s stand up and say we’re not ready to let the country be given over to the Sarah Palins of the world.

[Sitnam]

@Crocodiles_And_Boulevards

As an atheist, I’m royally pissed that Bill Maher is one of the most public atheist figures out there right now. The man has zero depth, and his understanding and appreciation for the greatest arguments for atheism are nearly nonexistent.

It honestly troubles me that Maher is one of the more likely atheists that people are going to see in the spotlight. While atheists can hardly be thought of as an organized association with representatives, it’s an arguably automatic assumption for the uninformed. If that’s going to happen at all, I’d rather have real atheist intellectual powerhouses making movies like Religulous.

Anyway, this pitting is getting too nice and reasonable. Does anyone else (atheist or otherwise) get sick when Maher goes off on an anti-religion rant on his HBO show?

Fuck you, Bill Maher.

I agree 100%, however it is nice to see religion being taken to task even if it comes from the mouth of a self-important blowhard. I’m confident that movie wont change minds, but drawing religious absurdity to the surface is healthy.

And like Maher I do believe Obama is faking it.

[Hazle_Weatherfield]

Again…Bill Maher…not an atheist. Maybe I said this in the other thread. Maybe these 2 threads could be merged?

[Cervaise]

He says he’s not an atheist. But based on his actual assertions and beliefs as stated in the film (sample quote, from the ridiculous and wholly unearned apocalyptic finale: “religion must die for people to live”), I’m not sure if he’s all that clear on the difference between atheism and agnosticism.

[Jack_Batty]

Cervaise, read muttrox’s cite at the top of the page. I heard him say basically the same thing on The Daily Show. Seems pretty clear to me.

He says essentially that he just doesn’t know, and he’s pissed that religious people claim to absolutely know.

I myself am a little more militant. I just don’t see how anything religion claims, that is, anything supernatural, can be taken seriously. That’s why I identify more with atheism than agnosticism.

[Cervaise]

Yeah, I know. But I saw the movie, and I know what he said and did there.

[yojimbo]

@Cervaise

He says he’s not an atheist. But based on his actual assertions and beliefs as stated in the film (sample quote, from the ridiculous and wholly unearned apocalyptic finale: “religion must die for people to live”), I’m not sure if he’s all that clear on the difference between atheism and agnosticism.

He’s not sure about there being something there. He’s pretty damn sure however that it’s not a God as portrayed by any religion.

You can be 100% anti-religion without being an atheist.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@yojimbo

He’s not sure about there being something there. He’s pretty damn sure however that it’s not a God as portrayed by any religion.

You can be 100% anti-religion without being an atheist.

(bolding mine)

Exactly. Well said.

btw, I saw the movie and it’s freaking hilarious. One of my favorite moments was when the trucker walked out rather than face the fact that what he “believes” is complete nonsense.

“I’d rather think stupid stuff than have you point it out,” seemed to be his attitude. Unfortunately the vast majority of humans are just like him, IMO.

/sigh

As another great man once said, we’re a virus with shoes.

[muttrox]

I believe there’s some confusion of terms. One can be both agnostic and atheist.

Agnosticism is a statement about *epistemology *(standards of proof and knowledge). It says that we don’t know enough to make a decision.

Atheism is a statement of belief.

One can think that there isn’t enough evidence for them to believe that the issue has been convincingly settled, but then have their own opinion about what they think the true answer is. My wife is an agnostic theist, I am an agnostic atheist, I believe Maher is also.

Also see strong vs. weak atheism.

The distinction between strong and weak atheism is one of several applied to beliefs about the existence or nonexistence of gods. It is similar in ways to the popularly held conception of “atheists” and “agnostics,” in which atheism has generally been considered an active disbelief in gods, except by starting instead with the broader definition of atheism which includes any absence of belief in gods and thus encompasses some forms of agnosticism (see agnostic atheism).

[Shalmanese]

I think Bill Maher was an excellent casting for the message the movie was trying to get out. Religulous was not aimed at religious people, it was not designed as a religious conversion experience. Every religious person is against anything that isn’t “my religion”. Yes, by all means mock the fat hispanic Jesus and the fat American truckers. We can all agree that “their religion” is bunk but “my religion” is different. Not one religious person will have their mind changed.

What this movie was taking square aim at was at atheists. It asks the question why do we need brilliant, educated, calm, charming people to spearhead atheism? Why do we set the bar so high? Why do we seek out ever increasingly sophisticated arguments and argue with so much patience and cede so much respect to the religious? Why can’t it be just some schmuck going “A talking snake? Really?”

Because when atheists stop ceding religious beliefs the respect they give to no other form of belief, that’s what it boils down to. What the movie was trying to say was that it’s you who are the problem. You, the ones that say such an ignorant smarmy bastard isn’t allowed to be the face of atheism. That the atheist agenda has to be run like a high priesthood managed by a slick PR team.

Maher showed the world what the other face of atheism could be. To stop arguing religion on their terms and to start arguing it on ours. To stop battling their strongest arguments as if that had any hope of converting them but to resort to simple ridicule because such beliefs are not even worth thinking of a smart argument against. When the other side is bringing to the table big fishes and bushes and talking snakes, do you really need to bone up on the intricacies of carbon dating in order to defeat them?

Personally, I disliked the movie. I thought the Michael Moore style editing was odious and Maher, like most non-religious people, seriously underestimates the profound impact of a genuine religious experience. But that doesn’t stop me from appreciating what they were trying to do. Religulous was designed to be uncomfortable to atheists, it’s completely non-threatening to religious people.