# I pit Bush for accepting the Purple Heart **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443 "2007-04-24T13:00:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/321 "2007-04-27T19:00:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I haven’t said he doesn’t have the right. All I’ve said is that it’s _offensive_. [/QUOTE] I think you mean it’s offensive to you, because it isn’t offensive to me. And obviously, it wasn’t offensive to the medal’s owner, Mr. Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/322 "2007-04-27T19:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] 1. **The medal wasn’t a medal anymore, it was a gift.** Even **Liberal** agrees that a medal is an object whose _only_ value is symbolic: it either means what it purports to mean or it has the same significance as Grandpa’s briar pipe – which nobody gets to meet the president to present. [/quote] Or it has the significance that its owner assigned to it. > [@](#): > > Besides which, **Liberal** also articulated the exact criteria by which we should ascertain the meaning of this mysterious bit of metal and ribbon when he said "…I do believe that the person who has earned the medal is entitled to invest it with whatever symbolism he wishes. " But **Liberal** seems to balk at the next step. Guys, we _know what that is_! Thomas has said it again and again: the symbolism attached to the gift is that _GWB deserves a Purple Heart because the verbal attacks he has endured are equivalent to the physical wounds suffered by soldiers injured by enemy action._ There’s no ambiguity here. I find it puzzling that some of the people (not necessarily only or always **Liberal** here) banging hardest on Thomas’ right to free speech are simultaneously disparaging it by pretending not to know what he _said_. You might have me confused with someone else. Mr. Thomas is as entitled to his opinion of Bush as I am to mine or you are to yours. I don’t have to agree that Bush deserves Mr. Thomas’s medal in order to say that Mr. Thomas is entitled to think differently. There are people (well, Diogenes mainly) acting like Thomas broke some objective moral standard, which is not the case. My tyrant could well be Mr. Thomas’s hero. ETA: In other words, if you want to say that Thomas and his wife are idiots, that’s fine by me and I won’t argue. But to say that they did something immoral, or Bush did something objectively wrong is, in my view, simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/323 "2007-04-27T22:14:38Z")
With this post, I think I may bow out of at least the Purple Heart part of the discussion, for two reasons. One, I agree that the subject is fairly trivial, even if it does seem fairly clear-cut, and two, the discussion has taken a turn in which I’m no longer certain I understand what all the disputants are saying. [QUOTE=Liberal] Or it has the significance that its owner assigned to it. [/QUOTE] By “owner,” you mean Mr. Thomas, right? Is there any question in your mind that the “significance” being “assigned” is anything other than what he told the newspaper it is? Namely, that GWB deserves a Purple Heart because the verbal attacks he has suffered are equivalent to the physical wounds thousands of soldiers have sustained in combat? Is there any question here that this “gift” (or whatever neutral word one might wish to use) is intended to carry that message? Is there any question that Mr. Thomas was invited to the White House for an event in which the president appeared in the Oval Office to allow Thomas to repeat his gesture? Is there any question that this constitutes official approval of Thomas’ statement? I mean, what part of this are you choking on? [QUOTE=Liberal] You might have me confused with someone else. Mr. Thomas is as entitled to his opinion of Bush as I am to mine or you are to yours. I don’t have to agree that Bush deserves Mr. Thomas’s medal in order to say that Mr. Thomas is entitled to think differently. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you’re just a face in the crowd. Everybody’s entitled to their opinion. Nobody’s entitled to have that opinion endorsed by the president of the United States. If it is, then it isn’t just their opinion any more. It’s theirs, _and_ that of the president. No matter how stupid it is. [QUOTE=Liberal] There are people (well, Diogenes mainly) acting like Thomas broke some objective moral standard, which is not the case. [/QUOTE] Ah, let’s split the difference. _If_ you believe that handing a Purple Heart to a “war president” who has endured many harsh words while something like 30,000 American servicemen were being killed and injured by bullets and bombs is something of an insult to actual winners of the medal, then Thomas is certainly complicit in the slur. I doubt if he intended the insult to his fellows, though. [QUOTE=Liberal] My tyrant could well be Mr. Thomas’s hero. [/QUOTE] Maybe, but that doesn’t make either of you worthy of presidential approbation for your philosophy. And you may want to reconsider the assertion that ownership of an object confers the right to do whatever one wants with it. A little reflection will illuminate some important exceptions, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/324 "2007-04-27T23:28:46Z")
Well, I never said that one has a right to do whatever one wants with an object he owns. I said that one has a right to give an object he owns to anyone he wishes. I don’t think he had the right to, say, _throw_ it at the president with aggressive intent. But he certainly had the right to compose a citation, take out his medal and ribbon, hand them over to his Congressman, and ask him to hand them over to the president. The president then had the right to decide whether to accept or reject it. He, rightly in my view, decided to accept it — not a military issued Purple Heart as a medal for combat injury, but Mr. Thomas’s own personal Purple Heart that Mr. Thomas, practically his neighbor by Texas standards, wanted to give him. He did so in a private, dignified meeting that Mr. Thomas said was the highlight of his life. From that perspective, it is hard to see protest over this as anything other than pettiness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/325 "2007-04-28T00:51:42Z")
Okey-dokey then, **Liberal**. I thought I could catch up to you at Thomas’ own words, which you seemed once to care about, but I’m obviously not going to coax you any closer to an answer than I already have, at least as far as the meaning of Mr. Thomas’ use of his Purple Heart is concerned (in conjunction with his own statements and his written “citation”), and what it means for a president to lend his office and presence to that statement. Regardless of the symbolism inherent in the medal itself (which is readily available), and (in spite of what you said earlier) regardless of the message Mr. Thomas himself has said he wishes to convey, you want to see the episode as one man delivering a rhubarb pie to his neighbor, who happens to be the chief executive and lives 2500 miles away. Fine, but at this point communication kind of breaks down. I might have something more to say in this thread, but I can’t think of anything else to add to or subtract from the Purple Heart debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/326 "2007-04-28T03:21:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, I never said that one has a right to do whatever one wants with an object he owns. I said that one has a right to give an object he owns to anyone he wishes. I don’t think he had the right to, say, throw it at the president with aggressive intent. But he certainly had the right to compose a citation, take out his medal and ribbon, hand them over to his Congressman, and ask him to hand them over to the president. I fully agree with all of this. > [@](#): > > The president then had the right to decide whether to accept or reject it. He, rightly in my view, decided to accept it — not a military issued Purple Heart as a medal for combat injury, but Mr. Thomas’s own personal Purple Heart that Mr. Thomas, practically his neighbor by Texas standards, wanted to give him. He did so in a private, dignified meeting that Mr. Thomas said was the highlight of his life. And I completely disagree with this. As I’ve already said, Bush turns down hundreds of gifts every week. And he publicly accepted this one. And he did so knowing what Thomas meant by the gift. So he can make whatever kind of empty demurral he wants about how unworthy he is, but the bottom line is when it was offered to him he accepted it. He went out of his way to accept it. Saying _“I don’t deserve this…”_ doesn’t mean much when it’s followed by _“…but give it to me.”_ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/327 "2007-04-28T06:33:01Z")
Come to think of it, I wonder if that “citation” really is affixed with a pineapple-shaped magnet to the front of a Sub-Zero in the kitchen at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/328 "2007-04-28T06:40:13Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] IAs I’ve already said, Bush turns down hundreds of gifts every week. And he publicly accepted this one. And he did so knowing what Thomas meant by the gift. So he can make whatever kind of empty demurral he wants about how unworthy he is, but the bottom line is when it was offered to him he accepted it. He went out of his way to accept it. Saying _“I don’t deserve this…”_ doesn’t mean much when it’s followed by _“…but give it to me.”_ [/QUOTE] **NOT PUBLICLY!** Unless you care to provide evidence to the contrary. Dammit, if the whole country was against me (and I certainly hope that it IS, in the case of Chimpy), I’d be grateful for an excuse to spend twenty minutes with an individual who wasn’t. Twenty minutes that, in **kaylasdad99** ’sHO, would be more productively spent in consultation with Dr. Kevorkian… But then there would still be the problem of what to do about Dead-eye Dick. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/329 "2007-04-28T06:57:35Z")
> [@](#): > > NOT PUBLICLY! Unless you care to provide evidence to the contrary. Just a quiet little informal get-together. In the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/330 "2007-04-28T07:30:37Z")
…which, while the property of the public, is not a public forum, 99% of the time… PLEASE don’t let this non-event distract you from what’s important. What do you think will be revealed in Monica Goodling’s testimony before Congress? Do you think the Administration will try to block it from happening? If so, what will you think of that? GQ-type question: Suppose, that with immunity, Goodling decides to testify. Can the WH stop her? Let’s assume no Vince Foster-esque scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/331 "2007-04-28T19:32:20Z")
“The damage that can be done through false accusation can end with a result every bit as extreme as a bullet. The pen is mightier than the sword.” “What did you do in the war, Grampa?” “Why, _I_ called Saddam a motherfucker, son.” \*At the dawn of the 21st century an embattled president, desperate to change America’s fortunes in the Middle East, reaches out to what remains of his “base.” From their ranks he selects and personally trains an elite fighting force unique in military history: one that eschews not only weapons but conventional violence of any kind. Far from the safety of the battlefield, these intrepid warriors employ the harshest language, vituperation and sly innuendo against all enemies of the red, white and blue. Their exploits are the stuff of legend.\* Wholecloth productions proudly presents– **SERGEANT SCYLLA and SLANDER SQUAD SEVEN (in COLOR)** **Episode XIV: PREsennnnt…Malice!** _Pinned down in op-ed hell, as slurs and unfounded accusations whistle over the trenches, our hero racks his brain for a strategy._ **Scylla:** All right, you mugs, what’ve we got left for ammo? **Bertram:** We’re scraping the bottom of the barrel, Sarge. **Fenton:** And not in the _good_ way, either. **Muffy:** When the next wave comes at us I’ll be reaching for the yo-momma jokes. **Whizzer:** My Scaife bag’s empty, Sarge. For the last ten minutes I’ve been tellin’ _the truth_! (_Suddenly, an unexploded libel bounces into the trench_) **Scylla:** Everybody down! **Fenton:** (_lunges forward_) Tell my mother that I-- (_libel detonates_) **Muffy:** (_Pause_) Well, I’m certainly not telling his mother _that_. **Bertram:** Fenton saved us all. **Whizzer:** The bastard. (_His head jerks up_) And I never _said_ I invented the internet! (Slumps) **Muffy:** Shit! Friendly fire! **Scylla:** We’re sitting Kerries here – we gotta move. Muffy, we’ll use the yo-mommas as a diversion. Bertram, can you cover the left with a profane denigration of the appearance of their women? **Bertram:** I dunno, Sarge, there’s somethin’ about a brown-eyed – oh, the women? No problem. **Muffy:** Sarge, you can’t be thinking… **Scylla:** No more thinking, Muffy – time to bug out, _fast_. **Bertram:** I don’t get it. Muffy, where’s the Sarge takin’ us? **Muffy:** Hold on to your poison pen, Bertie. The Sarge is taking us on a guided tour – through the _no-spin zone_… (_Ominous music swells; fade to black_) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/332 "2007-04-28T19:38:26Z")
I bow to you, Master. ETA: Only I noticed you used potty words. I’m guessing this will run on Showtime, yes? ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/333 "2007-04-30T10:50:55Z")
That’s a little too kind, **kaylasdad99**. But thanks. I don’t grok “ETA” but the profanity _is_ a departure in style. I shouldn’t have tried it; it doesn’t come naturally. Besides, Gary Raymond never cussed on _Rat Patrol_. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-bush-for-accepting-the-purple-heart/401443/334 "2007-04-30T11:26:38Z")
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