# I pit Coldfire's WWII Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2005, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345 "2005-05-04T09:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/21 "2005-05-04T13:37:15Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I’m working on it. But I was gonna do baby seals instead of puppies. They’re becoming endangered, you know. The little fuckers. So this baby seal goes into a bar. Bartender asks, “What’ll ya have?” Baby seal responds, “Anything but a Canadian Club.” Har. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/22 "2005-05-04T13:44:00Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Although I only read the first dozen posts on the first page and this year’s posts on the last page, it left a bad taste in my mouth. Why? Well, there are some things that don’t really stand up, like British troops fighting in a war that didn’t concern them. Hardly. We were next on Hitler’s list. Then there are the absences, such as the Dutch who sided with Hitler or were considered traitorous by other Dutch people. Then, there is the whole question of exactly how much the average German knew about what Hitler and his henchmen were doing, and how much they willingly contributed to it. I think the problem is that you are pitting inaccuracies in that thread, while the whole point of the thread was to be able to vocalize the feelings some people have for those who liberated Europe. It was not a great debate about how many NSBers there were in the Netherlands, or how many people actually became members of the NSDAP in Germany. Those things are best left for other threads. That thread was just an outlet for some people to remember and write about some of the things that happened to them or their families at that time in history. For that reason alone the things that you don’t think stand up, don’t have to be pitted. I think **Coldfire** is well aware that there were NSBers and others in the Netherlands who were sympathetic to the Nazi cause. That doesn’t change the fact that **he** is genuinely thankful for those who liberated his country and wanted to write about that. I think the best thing that thread does is to remind us of how little we know of what actually happened in those days, and maybe have us ask our grandparents or great-grandparents about it. I’m German, and my mother was five when her home-town was liberated by the Americans. She says that the tanks and soldiers marching down their small main street are some of the earliest memories she has. She remembers seeing a black man for the first time in her life, and she remembers tasting chocolate and chewing gum for the first time in her life. To this very day, eating a stick of Juicy Fruit will make her remember. My mother also remembers being hungry a lot during those last months of the war. She remembers getting CARE packages, and her mother helping sort bricks in the completely firebombed city of Darmstadt. My father was six in 1945, and he was living on his aunts farm, because the city where his family was living (Neu-Ulm) had already been bombed several times and the country was a lot safer than the city. Also, they had a lot more food, since they could grow their own fruits and vegetables and butcher their own animals. That thread made me ask my parents and grandparents about those days. From my grandmother I heard that my grandfather was a volunteer fireman who was called to Darmstadt the day after the allies had firebombed the city. [Here](http://www.digitaldarmstadt.de/altneu/stadt1947.jpg) is a picture of the aftermath. My grandfather said that the heat was so bad that the tram rails had melted and fused the tram wheels to the tracks. The firestorm was so bad that oxygen was sucked out of the bomb shelters and many people simply suffocated. He said that there were charred corpses the sizes of small cats in some of the buildings. Yet, he was overjoyed when the allies liberated Darmstadt, and wept for joy. He was not mad at them for bombing Darmstadt, he was mad at Hitler for the “total war” he wanted. So, I really don’t understand why you would want to pit that thread for any inacurracies it may contain. It’s not a doctoral thesis on the history of WWII. It’s meant as an outlet. Unless you pitted it just to stir up shit. That would definitely come under the heading of “being a jerk” or worse, but judging by the other posts I know from you, I don’t think that would be your motivation. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/23 "2005-05-04T13:50:12Z")
Coldfire’s post was apologetic, something I’m not very fond of, but it doesn’t seem to me it deserves a pitting. I read the beginning of the thread, and the only thing that irritated me was a comment made by someone about this being a good reason for american people to feel pride, while for instance, the only person on this board who would be justified in feeling pride is AFAIK \*\* David Simmons \*\*. I can understand people being prideful for their parents, or even grand parents actions (especially since I am personnaly. Though “overwhelmed” or “amazed” would be a more correct word in this case). But feeling pride just because you happen to have the same citizenship is just ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/24 "2005-05-04T14:04:28Z")
Feeling pride in your country and your forefathers is part of what brings a culture and a society together. It’s the difference between a nation and a collection of people with citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/25 "2005-05-04T14:08:39Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I can understand people being prideful for their parents, or even grand parents actions (especially since I am personnaly. Though “overwhelmed” or “amazed” would be a more correct word in this case). But feeling pride just because you happen to have the same citizenship is just ludicrous. I believe Coldfire, in his comment on the dangers of excessive patriotism, would agree, but I give those people the benefit of the doubt and assume that, when they think about the sacrifices and accomplishments of their parents and grandparents, they are so overwhelmed and amazed they cannot quite put their feelings into words. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/26 "2005-05-04T14:30:07Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > many Germans _were_ bug supporters of Hitler I for one welcome our insect overlords… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/27 "2005-05-04T15:05:27Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > So when can we look forward to someone Pitting … love for one’s fellow man? Are you kidding? We get one of those practically every week. ---
**Author:** ![Fortean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fortean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fortean)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/28 "2005-05-04T15:24:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you kidding? We get one of those practically every week. ?? I can’t remember the last time anyone was pitted for that – can you clarify, or am I being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/29 "2005-05-04T16:12:30Z")
Step 1: Note Matt’s gender preference Step 2: Think for a couple seconds Step 3: Watch as his comment flies by your left ear making a whooshing sound ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/30 "2005-05-04T16:22:17Z")
Hmmmm, right, well,… I’m going to very hesistantly somewhat slightly agree with **Mr Thornhill** here. I too tend to be ever so slightly irritated by the WW2 rethoric and how it is a sacred thing that cannot be criticised. Note that I am criticising the rhetoric NOT, I repeat NOT, the people who gave their lives in this war, nor any expression of gratitute towards them. I also believe that **Coldfire’s** motives were sincere. There are, however, two aspects of this I object to: Firstly, in many countries, like The Netherlands where I am from, saying anything to criticise the war, is like saying you don’t care about those soldiers giving their lives. This sort of thing seems to happen whenever there is or was a war. And no matter how much of a “cartoon baddie” Hitler seems, this war wasn’t black and white. No wars are. But that can’t be discussed. So I do object to that side of things. Secondly, this big slogan of “never forgetting”, uttered so devoutly by everyone. I think we have forgotten rather a lot. Personal freedom is diminishing by the minute. Identification is now compulsory in Holland at all times. And as for the scapegoating of minorities…Well, make it up yourselves. Now I don’t want to ridiculously exaggerate and say things are as bad now as they were then, i.e. I’m desperately trying not to Godwinise the thread. However, I feel that there is a tendency to be holier than thou and devout about something that is safely in the past and pretending it was clearcut without ever feeling the need to engage the brain about the present. I also feel that it is _always_ bad when anything cannot be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Canadiangirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Canadiangirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadiangirl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/31 "2005-05-04T16:31:02Z")
I must say, as a Canadian, I am truly disappointed in the reactions of some to a simple posting. It makes me very sad and sorry for you, being as uneducated and unworldly as you must be. P.S. Thank you, Airman Doors. I remember that posting from last year and glad to see you in on this one! ---
**Author:** ![Fortean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fortean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fortean)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/32 "2005-05-04T17:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Step 1: Note Matt’s gender preference > Step 2: Think for a couple seconds > Step 3: Watch as his comment flies by your left ear making a whooshing sound Ah good, I was hoping I wasn’t going mad, and that matt\_mcl was somehow claiming that gay people were regularly pitted here. WTF? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/33 "2005-05-04T17:57:49Z")
**Pookah…** Can you please explain how Hitler only SEEMS like a CARTOON BADDIE. Seems pretty straight forward to me the guy was a fucking evil nut. What are the issues concerning WWII that seem unclear to you? > [@](#): > > However, I feel that there is a tendency to be holier than thou and devout about something that is safely in the past and pretending it was clearcut without ever feeling the need to engage the brain about the present. I also feel that it is always bad when anything cannot be discussed. Please tell us what it is you wish to discuss. (I really hope I am wrong about you) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/34 "2005-05-04T19:37:38Z")
> [@Fortean](#): > > Ah good, I was hoping I wasn’t going mad, and that matt\_mcl was somehow claiming that gay people were regularly pitted here. WTF? It’s not so common lately but we’ve had plenty of threads complaining about them uppity queers thinking they deserve special treatment because, not despite, being preverts. 😉 Then there are the people who are regularly pitted, like Jack Chick and Fred Phelps, because they say things about gay folk that would get them banned if they were guests here. “Guests” since they would never last long enough for us to get our fifteen bucks of membership flesh before banning them. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/35 "2005-05-04T19:38:36Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Please tell us what it is you wish to discuss. > > (I really hope I am wrong about you) I think that if you will re-read the post, you will note that he feels that society _in the Netherlands_ (by which I will make the potentially faulty assumption that he is referring to pubs and kitchens and not to classrooms) seems to discourage any honest appraisal of mistakes made by those assaulted by the _Wehrmacht_ in the period leading up to the war. I did not see any claim that such discussions (of which there have been several) were prohibited on the SDMB. (I do agree that Hitler was much more than a cartoon baddie, but, again, that may be a reference to the way that people make him out to be simply “ultimate evil” as a way to avoid examining how he was able to acquire and wield so much power.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/36 "2005-05-04T20:26:24Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > My point is the opposite, that many Germans _were_ bug supporters of Hitler Well, right until the moment he invaded Klendathu. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/37 "2005-05-04T20:53:49Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > My point is the opposite, that many Germans _were_ bug supporters of Hitler, his “willing executioners” in Goldhagen’s terms. Next I suppose you’re going to claim that that is what the Zyklon B was for. Hey, Memorial Day is coming up soon, maybe you should pit [my Memorial Day thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=25805&highlight=Memorial) too. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/38 "2005-05-04T21:05:33Z")
> [@Mycroft Holmes](#): > > That thread made me ask my parents and grandparents about those days. From my grandmother I heard that my grandfather was a volunteer fireman who was called to Darmstadt the day after the allies had firebombed the city. [Here](http://www.digitaldarmstadt.de/altneu/stadt1947.jpg) is a picture of the aftermath. My grandfather said that the heat was so bad that the tram rails had melted and fused the tram wheels to the tracks. The firestorm was so bad that oxygen was sucked out of the bomb shelters and many people simply suffocated. He said that there were charred corpses the sizes of small cats in some of the buildings. Yet, he was overjoyed when the allies liberated Darmstadt, and wept for joy. He was not mad at them for bombing Darmstadt, he was mad at Hitler for the “total war” he wanted. Quick hijack-your family’s from Darmstadt? Question-which palace was the one that was bombed-was it Wolfsgarten or the New Palace? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/39 "2005-05-04T21:05:55Z")
**roger** , my enigmatic friend…I gotta hand it to you. You’re bringing the people together better than GWB could have ever hoped to do. You’ve got people from all over the political and philosophical spectrum hammering you for this one. I would take up for you somewhat, but you may recall that I “write with eyes that know the darkness in your soul,” and I’ve taken my lesson to heart. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345/40 "2005-05-04T21:48:40Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > My point is the opposite, that many Germans were **bug** supporters of Hitler… > [@Weirddave](#): > > Next I suppose you’re going to claim that that is what the **Zyklon B** was for. My nominee for the most obscure pun of the week! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-coldfires-wwii-thread/302345.md?page=3)