I pit college bookselling games...

I forgot to mention earlier that one of my pre-X-ray school classes was Eng Lit 101, and that the required textbook was around $200. The woman teaching said class had a PhD and thought she was a snowflake to be treated as if she were on a higher level than others. Insulting folks who answered things close-but-not-perfect were treated badly, and was common. It made the class a horrible experience overall.

She made it clear on Day One that she would definitely fail anyone who did not purchase the required textbook, even if a person had a perfect grade. I got very suspicious and called publisher to find out if the teacher had a vested interest in demanding use of that certain book. Turns out that she DID! IIRC, she had a partial-ownership of said publishing company and made profits from her sales of that book.

College said it could not prevent her from the demand, but if I were to have the grade to pass and she failed me anyways, the college would be able to fire her immediately for ‘coercion’ or something (forget how they put it). I just had to prove it, in other words. I then went and told this teacher I was intentionally not going to buy book since I could have her fired and likely lose her teaching credentials at same time. She was shocked I had done some checking on her, and said that I was to stay out of her business and that she would make sure to grade my work on low-side because of my checking into her “personal business”. She was going to try and fail me no matter what, in a hutshell. She said it several times, LOL. I had found out her little ‘secret’ that College was not aware of, and retribution was to be given unto me for fact-checking.

Went back to College Admins with that (recorded-on-tape) conversation, and that particular class never was taught by her again. Explanation from new prof was that she had been given other duties and could not afford time to teach that class. I still saw her name upon staff listings a few years later, but I don’t think she was given any responsibity within college ever again, from what I heard, after I was done with all the pre-reqs for X-ray school. I did enjoy playing the taped convo with rest of class soon after, and everyone felt betrayed by her required textbook demand. Lots of them went to get refunds back from store where bought (on campus) and most did receive full refund at Admin direction (per the manager of said bookstore). Guess that Admin was trying to keep it under wraps so as to keep itself out of trouble of any sort, but stuff changed quickly in absolute requirements for textbooks, IMHO. A number of other profs of various subjects apparently learned of my action and turned to saying that alternate and/or no books could be used, but they highly recommended ceratin ones, wink/wink.

Profit-driven required texts certainly happens at teacher-level, though I cannot give but this one example.

Thathappened.

When RTs began to be licensed in Illinois my wife was glad that the military techs weren’t grandfathered in because they were barely educated and knew little of modern (1982) techniques. And chiropractors and their receptionists couldn’t take x-rays anymore. Prior to that I heard regular complaints that dog groomers needed to be licensed in this state but a chiro’s teenaged daughter could take them after school.

A literature professor with partial ownership of the publishing house.

Yeah.

No.

Didn’t happen.

Neither did the rest of your story.

Kickbacks certainly do happen. One method I’ve heard used to be common at a public university around here was for the professors to write their own (low-quality) books, set a high price with the publishers, make them required for their own courses, and then roll in the royalties. I understand the legislature did end up stepping in on that problem, though I don’t know exactly how they resolved it (the author of a good book should certainly be expected to use it in their own class, after all).

On the other hand, some teachers really do care. I remember when I took my orbital dynamics class, on the first day the professor told us “There are two good textbooks on this subject. This one costs $26, and therefore that’s the one we’re going to use. Here’s the info for the other one, if you want it as a supplement.”. Or a math class I took, where we did use a textbook written by the professor, but we were charged only enough to cover the cost of laser printing and spiral binding.

And a word of warning: It isn’t necessarily the professor who’s choosing which book to use. I know that when I taught a community college course, I certainly didn’t have a choice of textbook. This was largely because I was hired on extremely short notice, and some of the students had probably already bought the book before I would have had a chance to pick one… but then, that’s a fairly common situation at community colleges. I don’t even know for sure who it was who chose the book we were using, though I could have asked around and found out.

You don’t need that, just check if they’re in athletics…

My undergrad required a “thesis”. Mine was a series of computer programs the Stats teacher wanted to have so he could print out and give stats tables to the students for free. Tuition was high but damn, they didn’t expect us to spend our rental money on books.

I teach an intro to Microsoft Office course. The 300-page spiral bound book would cost my students $160, this for a two-credit course that practically every program required. Instead I have created my own coursework and assignments, and for readings I have students refer to set of online training videos that the college pays for through the student IT fees, so it’s free for the students (the site is Atomic Learning if you’re interested).

i always try to find mass-market books for my programming classes if possible. For one thing, I can browse them at my local B&N before making my final decision. Plus some textbooks are mass-market books with more colors and perhaps end-of-chapter questions.

In Computer Science, the canonical text for algorithms is known as CLRS (after the initials of the authors). At my alma mater, for years this was the text for Algorithms II. When I took Algorithms I, our profs had the bright idea to save us some money by changing to requiring CLRS for the course, and then we wouldn’t have to buy a second text for Algorithms II.

I scarcely to need to tell you what happened when my class reached Algorithms II. All of a sudden, a different text was required. A text that our prof outright admitted to us was inferior in CLRS. I was so mad. The university didn’t even try to be subtle about ripping us off (I don’t blame the profs from either year, by the way, just the university)

I’d be interested to see some evidence of this. After all, if the legislature stepped in, it’s a matter of public record somewhere. It might have happened, i guess, but it doesn’t seem to pass the sniff test.

First of all, the official amount of time it takes to write a book is A Fucking Long-Ass Time. Even a relatively crappy book is likely to take hundreds and hundreds, or even thousands of hours. I am having trouble envisioning a situation in which a professor could write a low-quality book, require it for his or her courses, and end up “roll[ing] in the royalties.”

Yes, you can make a metric ass-ton of money if you write a successful and widely-used textbook, but that generally requires a LOT of sales, because publishers keep most of the money. In the situation you’re describing, basically the only people buying the book would be the captive audience at the professor’s own university. No other college professor is likely to pick up a low-quality work like that and assign it to his or her classes. I simply don’t see how this would work out as any real financial windfall. I guess if it was a really huge intro course with 500 or 1000 students per semester it might work, but that’s about it. And even then, the book would run into the same issues, discussed already in this thread, of the market for the new book drying up as students sold their used copies on to the next class.

You say you’ve “heard” that this method “used to be common at a public university around here,” and that you “understand” the legislature stepped in. That’s not exactly rock-solid backup for your claim that “Kickbacks certainly do happen.” As i said, it’s entirely possible that they do, but i’d want to hear more than some vague story with all the flavor of an urban legend in order to be convinced.

I’m trying to figure out, Amateur Barbarian, in this case with the supplemental online material, if a student is actually required to have it in order to demonstrate knowledge of the material, because these two classes are, after all, introductory. I mean, does the professor’s testing/assessment require that a student actually work with only these materials? Can a student learn the subject matter sufficiently from some other source?

Can’t there be some policy that says that no grading/assessment be intrinsically tied to a particular text?

I believe that would be incredibly stupid and counterproductive.

I can’t speak for all disciplines, but in mine, some books are manifestly better than others, and i’m willing to be that this is the case in many academic subjects. One of the professional duties of university professors is to use their expertise in assessing the best materials for their students.

Not only are books of different quality, but they often deal with different issues. While most US history textbooks deal with a similar set of important events and themes and ideas and institutions, they place emphasis in different areas, and write about issues in different ways. Just telling my students to go out and buy any American history textbook would make the class basically impossible to teach.

The only way this could work is if you use the textbook only as a supplement to in-class work, and never actually discuss the books in the class itself. But in my classes, i expect the students to read the book, and to come to class ready to discuss it. This sort of thing works far better if we’ve all read pretty much the same thing, because i’m not just trying to teach them the “facts” of history; i’m trying to improve their analytical and critical thinking abilities.

Mandating that no particular text be required for any grading or assessment task might solve the financial problem, but it would completely fuck up the pedagogical landscape. It is, or should be, perfectly possible to choose materials that are good, and that don’t place an undue financial burden on the students.

In the dark ages when I started college, there was no world wide web and CDs were something that were brand new and replaced albums.

The college I went to had a policy that every book required for class was available at the library on three hour checkout. In theory, if you did all your studying at the library, you wouldn’t have to buy a single book. Popular courses in a 600 seat auditorium would have a few copies. The issue might be showing up to discover someone else had them checked out, but they’d be back within a few hours.

(They did recommend you buy books in your major and some subject books - Math, I think).

I went to a few other schools over the year, and that was the only one that had that program. It was an awesome deal for that Russian History class with eight books and one of the books you’ll read fifty pages from and is $120 of textbook.

This could still be done if the computer based resources - web sites and special CDs were always either supplementary or open.

A friend teaches at a local collage. He teaches a mid-level intro course, and the school leans heavy to self-published books. The textbooks for his class had been written by a former instructor that had departed the school to dance on tables in Costa Rica, or something. The Wednesday before class started, he discovered that not only did the book store not have any books for the class, none had selected, or ordered by his department. He was an Adjunct professor, the IRS had just slapped the school limiting Adjuncts to 12 quarter hours per term, and he quickly figured out that a better use of his time would be to re-shingle his roof, as opposed to teaching with no textbook and lab manuals.

Seems the table dancer held on to the copywrite, and the school did not want, or even thought about paying for the books to be used.

It definitely DID happen, and your disbelief does not negate that.

A fairly analogous exxample, which I am EXTREMELY familiar with is how a couple Docs will puchase/build an Outpatient Imaging Center. They will then order exams that their office schedules (per Doc’s orders/demands) at the Imaging Center they own, therefore making more money. Lots of overuse of imaging due to profit-driven motives, no doubt at all. I have heard more than a few such Docs proudly state how they upped profit by forcing pt’s to use their outpatient Centers -v- patient choice/convenience for exact same result/images of exam.

My personal on-hand experience(s) is that when a patient says they prefer to have their exam/test elsewhere (maybe they live 100+ miles away and exact same exam/results can be done 5 miles from their home) is that the Doc(s) pitch a fit and say if they don’t get exam(s) done where Doc wants, the patient can find anonther Doc to take care of them. One Doc, the most adamant of any I have ever worked with, actually cursed and swore at young patient’s mother who had called for legal advice from a close family-friend who was a known to be staunch defender of Doc ‘abuse of system’ She was firm in her stance that if he dropped patient for not going to the Doc-owned place, the Doc could be facing some serious issues with various licensing agencies, etc, as attorney was going to take their case pro bono out of priniciple and drag him through the mud publically. The mother chose to be referred to another Ortho (which first Doc resisted by any means, delayed purposely by at least a week by his refusal to allow records to be sent, etc, and with more than a tinge of hatred) who she was told did not do such ‘forced-exam-location scheduling’ BS. I know the Doc received a stern warning letter giving him 24 hours or attorney was going straight to Courthouse to file complaint(s) and to be given access to all patient records, etc. The rage Doc displayed in his office made everyone else laugh since he had to do what he refused to do or be revealed to his cohorts as a sumbitch.

All who worked in that office could overhear the Doc screaming at manager about keeping his ‘secret’ of referring for additional income. “NEVER schedule anything at a place I do not own!” The person(s) who scheduled exams were told explicitly that if they (patients) asked about another more-convenient location as Image Center (CT/MRI outpatient place), they would be referred out without delay (but delays wsa the standard Doc gave every time. If patient made any fuss at all, the patient went to status of 'refer to any other Ortho at that time - plus patient was not allowed to ask Doc why they were being referred elsewhere without being given reason at all. I saw at least three front-desk persons trying to not explain why they were being cast out, and Doc fired them immediately for whatever reason he chose to make up.

Very crooked Doc. I quit working there promptly when his covering-up all of his dirtiness and blaming workers for failures to get stuff done became overwhelming. He blamed me personally for losing an important set of films the day he neded them for a surgery. Manager, who tried to cover for me as I had kept records of films leaving the shelf whre films were kept were shown to manager. Records showed he was last in possession, so manager went to Doc’s car and looked in trunk, and there lay the films he said he never had! Obvious he was making me look like a fool. But his stance was I ‘planted’ them there to make him a fool - how in hell would I have access to his car’s trunk, right? Stuff like that that only he could do, or required his signature but he would not sign it due to refusal to address anything that wasn’t ‘perfect’ (ie missed deadline for returning renewals of various associations. etc).

It was employees’ fault, always, even though papers were placed in timely manner where he wanted - right under his nose in front of his chair in his personal office. Usually, the stuff got placed in a pile about three foot high behind him on floor and disregarded until he learned of missed deadline. Always employees’ fault. Always. I was well-versed in ‘installing’ plaster/fiberglass casts, and stood by him as he incorrectly applied fiberglass cast for broken elbow without using the ‘padding’ first. Doc took a few days off and patient returned as ‘ememrgency’ since area under cast was becoming raw/bleeding/near-infected due to his not using protective padding (kinda like thickish cotton strips, it varied, but purpose was clear). I was asked by manager to remake cast appropriately (due to years of other Ortho experiences making great casts) and when Doc returned and found out, his excuse was that he did not use padding for a good reason, but would say what the reason was! He could not admit he fucked up no matter how bad patient’s condition was. I even hada ‘manual’ for casting procedures opened up to pages that described neccessity of padding with casting process. He took book and threw it out of room as he “knew more than they did”!

When I brought up improper sterilization technique (long-time broken autoclave, zero training of non-experienced assitant(s) on use of sterile techniqueas they came and went almost bi-weekly, reusing staple/stitches removal items on numerous patients w/out any cleaning whatsoever (at most, wipe with paper towel and just toss 'em back in drawer after digging out staples/stitches from blood-covered wounds and the like). Office was to appear to be perfect, while the gears driving the office were typically subjected to demeaning pressure to “Do what I say because I don’t care about how its done - just do it!”.

Spending any money to repair faulty necessary items was not to be mentioned - “Find a way or walk away from here” was the mission statement for the most part. I found falsified sterilazation records that were ‘back-dated’ and I had already made copies of originals that did not have such entries. The State office charged with overseeing use of proper sterile technique (and lots of other office practices) was VERY interested for me to send to them, which I did. I got a call from Doc who was cursing at me immediately, so I simply hung up on him. Kept calling back for hours and I just ignored him.

Heck, the ‘floating table top’ of cheap X-ray unit I used kept having the magnetic ‘locks’ that held table in place once I had positioned patient kept failing due to ancient-type relays and power source to them being out of whack. Unit so old that parts to replace were becoming archaic and hard to find. I was told by manager to use duct tape to hold table top in place, per Docs direction, which was near impossible since table top would float from aimed-at area quickly when I tried to place tape at several areas for non-movement. Repair guys eventually told Doc they would no longer service the X-ray unit as Doc often refused to pay them since they kept telling him he neededto get another unit for patient safety and reliability, etc. His response was always ~“They are fools - everything can be fixed at low-cost”. When I left, there were zero repair companies willing to even take a call from his office, sad to say as related to patients’ safety (and the added exposure to ionization events because many films had to be redone due to table top’s movement during exposure for films.

More Docs than people would want to know about do very similar actions in regards to patient (and their safety overall) being the most important part of their office, IME. Scary, but true.

Why would some profs not be of ~same mind-set if they could raise their income by having a vested interest in source of book purchase(s)? Happens in many different professions, no doubt. Most likely a low percentage of Docs overall, but such things DO happen and usually under-the-radar until called out on it forcefully (as I did). There will always be someone ‘gaming’ the sytem in which they work, IMHO.

Of course, I see that, but I was not referring to content, but rather the instructional apparatus. It’s one thing to say to the students something like, “Next week you need to have read the first three chapters in Karnow’s work on Vietnam, and to be able to compare his perspective with Davidson–the books are available in the bookstore.” It’s another thing to say, “Your grade for this course will be based (in part) on your score on the Pearson online quizzes”–for which you need to pay $200. When I taught at UCLA (English, which of course is different from history, but completely about critical thinking and analysis), we paid for the rights to cull together a reader for the content for a course, which the students had to buy, but which never was over $50, and I created my own apparatus for instruction, which I just photocopied and gave out.

Clearly the line between the content and the instructional apparatus can get blurry, depending on the area of study, but what I suspect is the professors are subscribing to these publishers services out of convenience, not pedagogical integrity.

My brother is a very senior professor (sometime department head) and one of the very top figures in his sub-field. After dicking around with publishing the core text for the field for years, he founded his own press. It produces the updated editions of his MO and a few supplementary books by him and colleagues.

So yeah, can happen, and in the cases I know of (as a small publisher myself) it tends to lead to better pricing and more stability of the materials.

Just as an observation, this thread is fragmenting a bit and some of the directions aren’t all that productive. That textbooks are inherently expensive for good and obvious reasons - I don’t think their cost relative to, say, Stephen King’s latest novel is worth debate or discussion.

Excessively frequent “updates” that change the material little but kill resale values?
Locking texts to online material “keys” that are only good once, making the resale/used value nil at best?
Readers and collections of largely public-domain or low-cost-rights material, shuffled and re-sorted to make them unique and allow jacking the price?
Pressuring bookstores to take the highest-profit options among all these choices?

…fuck 'em all.

In physics, at least, those online supplements can be quite valuable as a teaching tool. One common setup is for the homework to be done online: The student can attempt the problem as many times as they’d like until they get it right, but each time they attempt the problem, the numbers are different. This is great for teaching, since students get lots of practice, and more practice on the problems where they need it. Plus, you can be sure that the students aren’t just copying from other students, or from cheater sites online. But it’s really only possible on a computer, and creating problems like that is more work than conventional problems, so it really isn’t practical as a teacher to create those problems yourself, so you have to use the ones from the publisher. Given that this sort of supplement really does add value, it’s reasonable to charge some amount extra for it.

How much extra? I don’t know.

Another point that’s not really debatable except as to whether the online material is truly useful/essential, and how much it costs.

The reasonable solution would be to uncouple the book and the online key, and price each accordingly. That a large and expensive book is padded with a one-time key, not replaceable except with another full copy of the book, should be illegal. Or at least strenuously rejected by the colleges/bookstores in favor of a two-part pricing.

You can do that. Most publishers I’ve worked with sell the online key as a stand alone product and the student can buy the text used or new for cheaper elsewhere. Now that it’s a federal requirement to post textbook isbn numbers, students have a lot more control of where they buy (or rent) their books.