# I pit crying babies in public places **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368 "2010-01-25T15:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/181 "2010-01-26T16:19:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In some areas whether because of criminal activity in the community or a lack of parental gun safety, very young children have access to handguns and many would argue they lack the mental capabilities to understand the consequences of pulling the trigger. In war zones (and some high crime zones), it can easily be your life or the kid’s whether it’s a kid caring a weapon or a kid unable to be quiet and not betray you to the enemy. Yes, there have been shootouts at Denny’s restaurants, but that does not make them war zones subject to CPS involvement when children eat there. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/182 "2010-01-26T16:19:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In some areas whether because of criminal activity in the community or a lack of parental gun safety, very young children have access to handguns and many would argue they lack the mental capabilities to understand the consequences of pulling the trigger. In war zones (and some high crime zones), it can easily be your life or the kid’s whether it’s a kid caring a weapon or a kid unable to be quiet and not betray you to the enemy. Duh. That’s why I advocate eating them. If you eat them before they evolve the motor coordination to kill you, you’re safe! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/183 "2010-01-26T16:19:44Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > So my next question to you … if a kid is homeschooled, and therefore freed from the traditional ‘school hours’, is it abuse if the family decides to have their awake hours from 8 at night to 8 in the morning, instead of 8 in the morning til 8 at night? It is all in perspective, the kid can get perfectly adequate food and sleep when it is dark out, it does not require the sun to be in the sky though that is the ‘norm’ for the rest of society. I wouldn’t consider that abusive, just unusual and far less likely than bad or possibly abusive parenting as the reason the kid is in Denny’s at two in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/184 "2010-01-26T16:20:07Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > How do you expect children to learn restaurant manners if they never go out to one? Part of parenting needs to be taking children out to various places and teaching proper behavior. Yes, that includes removing a baby quickly if they start to yell, but simply never taking a child out until they are 4 or 5 is asking for trouble all around. A toddler can be carried out fairly easily - a screaming, running 5 year old can cause quite a bit more havoc. I have to disagree with that. Starting about age 6 is where the concept that actions have consequences really starts to sink in. Kids that age can be prepped for good behavior by selling them on the idea that going out to eat is a special treat and if they behave themselves, we’ll do it again. And the parents need to be prepared for draconian action the first couple of times: when the child misbehaves, one parent _immediately_ takes the kid out to the car for a spanking while the other settles the bill and gets the food boxed up to go home. The child is specifically educated that their actions caused this result and they are sent straight to bed when they get home. It all boils down to the parents doing their jobs as parents. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/185 "2010-01-26T16:23:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I wouldn’t consider that abusive, just unusual and far less likely than bad or possibly abusive parenting as the reason the kid is in Denny’s at two in the morning. I’d consider feeding a child of any age Denny’s food to be _prima facie_ evidence of child abuse. Much as I would consider eating at Denny’s to be evidence of insanity in an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/186 "2010-01-26T16:24:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Nope, its still answering rudeness with rudeness. Ah. I figured you’d disagree. Maybe it’s a regional thing? I grew up in the Metro Boston area, and I see nothing wrong with occasionally answering rudeness in kind. Ever been to a Red Sox game? Plenty of opportunities there to practice what one preaches… ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/187 "2010-01-26T16:26:13Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Well, I suppose you are evesdropping on the crying baby, too, aren’t you? No. Not when the little weezer is screaming so loudly that you can’t hear someone on the other side of the table talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/188 "2010-01-26T16:26:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I have to disagree with that. Starting about age 6 is where the concept that actions have consequences really starts to sink in. Kids that age can be prepped for good behavior by selling them on the idea that going out to eat is a special treat and if they behave themselves, we’ll do it again. And the parents need to be prepared for draconian action the first couple of times: when the child misbehaves, one parent _immediately_ takes the kid out to the car for a spanking while the other settles the bill and gets the food boxed up to go home. The child is specifically educated that their actions caused this result and they are sent straight to bed when they get home. > > It all boils down to the parents doing their jobs as parents. Sometimes. Sometimes even the best parents and the best kids have a bad day where ordinarily well behaved children get “the devil in them” and do unpredictable things. Since a stranger in a restaurant only sees the child and parents for a brief period of time, making judgment calls on “good parent, bad parent” or “good child/bad child” can be really difficult. (I don’t know this for a fact, I don’t have the best children and am not the best parent. But I’m told my kids are pretty good and I’m a pretty good parent - I’d guess I’m at least average on the parent/child front - and mine aren’t completely predictable.) Then there is the whole issue of children with “hidden disabilities.” A kid who is autistic might not act as old as he looks, and may still - at nine - be undependable to take to dinner. But it really isn’t realistic that the kid be banned from Chili’s for eternity because he MIGHT act out. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/189 "2010-01-26T16:27:41Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Yes, there have been shootouts at Denny’s restaurants, but that does not make them war zones subject to CPS involvement when children eat there. Okay, that’s a rather illogical tangent. The earlier point was that if I ran into people who had a child out in the middle of night I think it would merit at least wondering what they were up to and if CPS should know about it. A lot of crimes get committed because people ignore the odd stuff that can be a red flag that something is wrong. A woman was arrested in my area who was prostituting her daughter at truck stops. This had been going on for many months, but she only only got caught after a waitress noticed how she took her daughter back to “look at the trucks” and the girl had a really negative look on her face at the prospect. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/190 "2010-01-26T16:28:37Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > No. Not when the little weezer is screaming so loudly that you can’t hear someone on the other side of the table talking to you. I can hear the conversation in the booth next to me. If the baby in the booth next to me is crying softly, is that still an issue, or is it only the screamers. And do I get to complain when you can hear the people at the table over cheering for the sports game that is on the TV over the bar that you can see from the table in the restaurant? That’s loud, too. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/191 "2010-01-26T16:32:49Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Where did I write that it was ok to be rude? My apologies if I misinterpreted. It seemed like the unspoken corollary to “if you don’t want to deal with kids being annoying and parents not doing anything about it, stay away from family restaurants” was “if you want to take your kids to a family restaurant, you’re going to have to put up with other people’s misbehaved children, because that’s just how things are.” Apparently I was mistaken. > [@Malthus](#): > > You may have missed my posts in which I state that parents and non-parents alike have a duty to reasonably accomodate each other. > > Parents: that means judging whether the venue is really child-appropriate for children of that age and taking reasonable measures to disciple, pacify or if necessary remove unruly children; > > Non-parents: that means being polite in turn to the well-intentioned parents who are behaving as above and realizing that your tender and delicate sensibilities may be upset by the sight of children in public. Speak of straw men, and they shall appear! I don’t think anyone here has contended that children should be excluded from public entirely. We merely desire that when children are \*\*misbehaving \*\*in public (screaming, crying, running around the restaurant instead of staying seated at their table), that either (a) their parents should quiet them or remove them or (b) the management of the restaurant should ask the party to leave. > [@](#): > > You absolute exclusionary rule is not reasonable; it is excessive and counter-productive. You _cannot_ merely hide children away until you are certain they will behave. If you do, they will never learn to behave in public. Absolutely not. But when a child has been brought into public and starts misbehaving, they need to be corrected or removed. Otherwise, they’ll hardly learn what constitutes appropriate behavior, if there are no consequences for behaving poorly. That’s how it worked when I was a kid–if we started acting up, and didn’t immediately stop when corrected, especially if it was in such a way that we’d be disturbing other people, that was it. My parents would immediately request the bill, pack everything up, and hustle us to the car while apologizing profusely (ETA: to the staff, not to us kids, unless it was to apologize to the kid whose night out got ruined by the other one misbehaving). And I’m not some old fogey reliving the glory days–I was born in '83. My parents just had a modicum of common fucking decency and consideration for other people. Honestly, I’m not sure what the confusion is here. Either you think that disruptive children should be corrected and removed, in which case you agree with us; or you think that children should be allowed to do whatever they want in public as some kind of learning experience, no matter who else it inconveniences, in which case you’re a fucking retard. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/192 "2010-01-26T16:33:57Z")
Can we **please** not turn this into the “Indulge ZPG in all of her Fortune-Telling, Child-Killing, Crystal-Ball-Reading Lunacy” thread? > [@Malthus](#): > > In my mind at least, taking the kid out may be necessary on occasion. > > What I object to is those pluging the absolute exclusionary rule. To my mind, that’s unreasonable and excessive, and counter-productive. With common politeness and a small degree of mutual sympathy, parents and non-parents alike can share public spaces. > > I object to mean-spiritedness and small-mindedness. As someone who will admit to disliking children, I don’t advocate an absolute rule, and I don’t think anyone is. I don’t demand, at the first whimper of a small child, that it be ejected from the restaurant immediately. If we’re talking about a baby that is so goddamn annoying that multiple patrons complain, as the OP described, can we agree that the kiddo needs to go outside until it shuts up, even if you are at Chili’s or whatever family-friendly establishment? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/193 "2010-01-26T16:39:06Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Honestly, if my baby started crying in public I’d try to calm it down as best as possible, but why should I be expected to accomodate other diners? Screw you, that’s the manager’s job, not mine…and the feelings of my baby are more important to me than YOUR feelings. So, if it’s taking her a little longer to calm down than usual you can just butt the hell out and, if you really feel so badly about it, YOU can move to another table. Don’t tell a complete stranger how to take care of his kid. Would you stand there and tell everyone around you who complained to get fucked, as well? I’m just curious, because that’s what the parents of the kid involved in my OP did. And why should you be expected to accommodate other diners? Plain, simple courtesy to others is why; something that is singularly lacking in our society these days. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/194 "2010-01-26T16:40:03Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’d consider feeding a child of any age Denny’s food to be _prima facie_ evidence of child abuse. Much as I would consider eating at Denny’s to be evidence of insanity in an adult. Not to mention the very real danger that getting involved in a screaming baby incident at a Denny’s could come back to haunt you at a future [child custody hearing](http://www.whoisthemonkey.com/videos/26family-guy-brian-flips-out-on-baby). ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/195 "2010-01-26T16:48:45Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Actually, despite my hectoring of **kidneyfailure** and **tacoloco** , I don’t encounter the phenomenon that often, either. The place I most frequently recall dealing with excessively noisy kids is on airplanes, but in that situation I cut the parents a hell of a lot more slack. However, given some of the situations as described by **Clothahump** and **Alice The Goon** , I would definitely find myself on the side of the “child-haters”. As a clarification: please keep in mind that I am not a “child-hater”. I very specifically pointed out that it is the parents fault; the kid was maybe six months old and was simply doing what kids that age are programmed by nature to do. I have no objection to children; I teach children on a daily basis, and they really are our hope for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/196 "2010-01-26T16:52:20Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I teach children on a daily basis, and they really are our hope for the future. Not if I finish this fucking Immortality Serum, they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/197 "2010-01-26T16:52:34Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Chili’s is a “family restaurant” in that they give you crayons and have plenty of high chairs - at least outside of the bar area. > > The only “kid specific” “restaurant” I know is Chuck E Cheeses. And you don’t go there for a meal. This Chili’s doesn’t provide crayons. My daughter worked there for three years as a hostess, which is why we still go there. Yes, they have high chairs. Yes, they have kids. Yes, sometimes the kids get unruly. But they, in all the times that we have been in there, have _never_ had a situation like that that was so badly mishandled to the point where we won’t go back again. And bottom line: yes, management dropped the ball but only after the parents had totally blown the situation out of the water. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/198 "2010-01-26T16:56:32Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > As a clarification: please keep in mind that I am not a “child-hater”. I very specifically pointed out that it is the parents fault; the kid was maybe six months old and was simply doing what kids that age are programmed by nature to do. I have no objection to children; I teach children on a daily basis, and they really are our hope for the future. I hear ya. That’s why I used the scare quotes around “child-haters”\*. I don’t hate them either, but that’s the kind of assumption that people like the parents in your OP tend to casually make. After they finish telling me to “get fucked”, of course. See, **tacoloco** , you retard? That’s how to use scare quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/199 "2010-01-26T16:56:47Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Can we **please** not turn this into the “Indulge ZPG in all of her Fortune-Telling, Child-Killing, Crystal-Ball-Reading Lunacy” thread? > > As someone who will admit to disliking children, I don’t advocate an absolute rule, and I don’t think anyone is. I don’t demand, at the first whimper of a small child, that it be ejected from the restaurant immediately. If we’re talking about a baby that is so goddamn annoying that multiple patrons complain, as the OP described, can we agree that the kiddo needs to go outside until it shuts up, even if you are at Chili’s or whatever family-friendly establishment? I agree that the parents should remove it from the restaurant - provided removing the child isn’t a bigger disruption than what is happening currently (removing a kicking screaming toddler from a restaurant requires that the tables are not too close together and you can get out without your child kicking anyone in the head or knocking over their drinks). I’m not going to agree that its necessarily in management’s best interests to intervene (although in the case of multiple tables complaining, it probably is.) ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368/200 "2010-01-26T17:01:06Z")
[quote=“Fuji, post:198, topic:526368”] See, **tacoloco** , you retard? That’s how to use scare quotes.[/SIZE] Thanks, English Language Expert Person. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-crying-babies-in-public-places/526368.md?page=11)