# I pit CVS price gouging **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 15, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424 "2011-09-15T19:06:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/41 "2011-09-22T06:37:39Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > There’s some pretty good research out there (I’m too lazy to quote it now but I’m sure a quick Google search will find it) that more competition and information sharply drives down the cost curve when it comes to healthcare. It’s worked in the few areas where it’s been ‘allowed’ (ie, no insurance coverage) so far, especially lasik/eye improvements and cosmetic surgery. If you let the invisible hand do its magic, you’d be surprised how much better off the healthcare consumer would be. Fuck research, there is actual hard data that medical costs in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD are lower than that of the US. Not like 50%of the countries that have UHC, EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/42 "2011-09-22T13:46:14Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Fuck research, there is actual hard data that medical costs in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD are lower than that of the US. Not like 50%of the countries that have UHC, EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. It’s social Darwinism, dude. People in diabetic comas are too stoopid to shop around for better generic drug prices. But don’t worrry: the republicans have a _plan._ ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/43 "2011-09-22T15:04:05Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Fuck research, there is actual hard data that medical costs in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD are lower than that of the US. Not like 50%of the countries that have UHC, EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. the emotional response, which is all I’ve come to expect from the lefties on this board. If you want to appear to be smarter on this subject (ie, why the market would lower the cost curve of healthcare delivery in this country), feel free to [read this](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/44 "2011-09-22T19:26:37Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > the emotional response, which is all I’ve come to expect from the lefties on this board. > > If you want to appear to be smarter on this subject (ie, why the market would lower the cost curve of healthcare delivery in this country), feel free to [read this](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html). Ah, the fallacy that having strong feelings about a subject invalidates one’s argument. Anyway, doesn’t Obamacare have a component exclusively dedicated to cost-comparison shopping? There is going to be a centralized marketplace where people can make their own decisions about what kind of health insurance to purchase. Sounds awfully capitalist to me. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/45 "2011-09-23T03:08:24Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > the emotional response, which is all I’ve come to expect from the lefties on this board. > > If you want to appear to be smarter on this subject (ie, why the market would lower the cost curve of healthcare delivery in this country), feel free to [read this](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa211.html). Emotional? Do you think that citing the fact that EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has lower health care costs than we do is an emotional argument? I’d say it’s empirical. On the one hand we have the ideological argument that government is bad, on the other hand we have the experience of EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/46 "2011-09-23T03:32:26Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Emotional? Do you think that citing the fact that EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has lower health care costs than we do is an emotional argument? I’d say it’s empirical. On the one hand we have the ideological argument that government is bad, on the other hand we have the experience of EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. Cite? And if so, so what? Lots of health care costs are simply a function of how much health care people want. If you want a $60k car and I want a $20k car, I can’t really crow about how I’ve found a way to lower my car costs. I’ve just decided to buy less car. Also, we have better quality health care in the US than in many countries, so we are getting more than other countries get for our health care dollars. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/47 "2011-09-23T06:13:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Cite? How about [this](http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf)? Highest healthcare costs OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. > [@](#): > > Also, we have better quality health care in the US than in many countries, so we are getting more than other countries get for our health care dollars. And what do we get for that? > [@](#): > > …while life expectancy in the United States used to be 1 ½ year above the OECD average in 1960, it is now, at 78.2 years in 2009, almost 1 ½ year below the average of 79.5 years. … > Infant mortality rates in the United States have fallen over the past few decades, but not as much as in most other OECD countries. It stood at 6.5 deaths per 1 000 live births in 2008, well above the OECD average of 4.4 in 2009. And to be clear, “above average” in this case is not good. I can’t believe that after all the debate over healthcare you still don’t know (or want to know) that the United States has the highest healthcare costs OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD while producing mediocre results. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/48 "2011-09-23T13:25:56Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > How about [this](http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf)? Highest healthcare costs OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. > And what do we get for that?And to be clear, “above average” in this case is not good. > > I can’t believe that after all the debate over healthcare you still don’t know (or want to know) that the United States has the highest healthcare costs OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD while producing mediocre results. And I still can’t believe that you are citing life expectancy as a measure of how good our health care system is. That’s a completely asinine thing to do because there is a lot more that goes into the health of a population than the quality of its healthcare system. It is not the fault of the US healthcare system that many Americans are obese and/or smoke and/or drink to excess etc. Here’s an illustration: say we have two islands. On Island A, their doctors are still using leeches to remove bad humors (and just basically don’t have a fucking clue about anything). The population of Island A all work the fields and eat well and don’t drink or smoke. On Island B, the doctors have cured everything, including cancer, AIDS, ALS, everything. The population of Island B sit around all the time and eat, drink, and smoke up a storm, and they have this idea that going to the doctor if you get sick is a bad thing to do, so very few actually go. According to ther measures you look at, it is very likely you would say Island A has the best healthcare system of the two because the population there is very likely to live longer and have lower infant mortality rates etc. But that’s a completely asinine conclusion. A better way to measure the effectiveness of a healthcare system is its ability to make sick people better, and on that score the US does very very well. People like you often dismiss this as “oh sure we have better survival rates for some forms of cancer, but look at these life expectancy numbers!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/49 "2011-09-23T13:35:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > …or there are unusual levels of transaction costs associating with finding those prices. How unusual? I can probably call three pharamacies and get prices in the space of ten minutes. In the OP’s case, ten minutes’ labor could have saved $190. > [@](#): > > The same thing, incidentally, happens with passport photos. You get get them for $7 most places, but Walgreens charges (or used to charge) like $35. People pay it because they assume there is well-functioning, competitive market for such things, when in fact it is not well-functioning. If the market is not well-functioning, it’s because the customers are too goddam lazy to make a few phone calls and sort out prices. The same is true for _any_ purchase of similar magnitude. If I want to buy a particular model of bookshelf stereo system, I’m not just going to walk into the nearest electronics shop and buy it at whatever price they’re offering it; I’m going to call a few places and ask what their price is, and then go and do business with the cheapest vendor. Why should drugs be any different? This spring my wife and I bought a new car. I called one dealer, and they offered a particular price. I called a second dealer, and they offered the same car for $1500 less. Should I be pissed that the government is not regulating “gouging” in this market? Wouldn’t you agree that I was a lazy ass if I couldn’t be bothered to call around and see who has the best price for what I want? When the cost of finding out information exceeds the expected savings, only then is [rational ignorance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance) appropriate. If a two-minute phone call can save even $5, that’s a wise use of one’s time. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/50 "2011-09-23T14:24:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And I still can’t believe that you are citing life expectancy as a measure of how good our health care system is. That’s a completely asinine thing to do because there is a lot more that goes into the health of a population than the quality of its healthcare system. It is not the fault of the US healthcare system that many Americans are obese and/or smoke and/or drink to excess etc. > > Here’s an illustration: say we have two islands. On Island A, their doctors are still using leeches to remove bad humors (and just basically don’t have a fucking clue about anything). The population of Island A all work the fields and eat well and don’t drink or smoke. > > On Island B, the doctors have cured everything, including cancer, AIDS, ALS, everything. The population of Island B sit around all the time and eat, drink, and smoke up a storm, and they have this idea that going to the doctor if you get sick is a bad thing to do, so very few actually go. > > According to ther measures you look at, it is very likely you would say Island A has the best healthcare system of the two because the population there is very likely to live longer and have lower infant mortality rates etc. But that’s a completely asinine conclusion. > > A better way to measure the effectiveness of a healthcare system is its ability to make sick people better, and on that score the US does very very well. People like you often dismiss this as “oh sure we have better survival rates for some forms of cancer, but look at these life expectancy numbers!” :rolleyes: Once again, conservatives cook up some wild ideological way to explain away reality. Just to look at one example, the United States has a lower rate of smoking than the European Union. We also have a much lower rate of alcohol consumption than Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/51 "2011-09-23T14:45:52Z")
Right, actually thinking myself about the issue instead of swallowing the left’s propaganda wholesale is “cooking up some wild ideological way to explain away reality.” I noticed you didn’t actually argue against what I said–is that because you are incapable of doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/52 "2011-09-23T19:51:19Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Emotional? Do you think that citing the fact that EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has lower health care costs than we do is an emotional argument? I’d say it’s empirical. On the one hand we have the ideological argument that government is bad, on the other hand we have the experience of EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. And Fuck Research. Oh yeah, FORGOT TO USE CAPS LOCK :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/53 "2011-09-23T19:54:57Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Once again, conservatives cook up some wild ideological way to explain away reality. Just to look at one example, the United States has a lower rate of smoking than the European Union. We also have a much lower rate of alcohol consumption than Europe. It’s dangerous to compare country to country, wrt healthcare costs or anything else, and try to draw conclusions. There are so many other differences that can account for it. For example, U.S. consumers spend approximately nine percent of their income on food compared with 11 percent in the United Kingdom, 17 percent in Japan, 27 percent in South Africa and 53 percent in India. Countries are different. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/54 "2011-09-23T20:51:53Z")
Dammit Mr. Smashy, take your “thinking” and “looking deeper into the facts” bullshit elsewhere! This is healthcare we are talking about! The way to debatew this issue is to grab whatever bullshit numbers appear to support your side if you don’t think about it very hard. What kind of doper are you, not knowing something as simple as that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/55 "2011-09-23T23:43:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What is it with titles of pit threads? I was 99% sure the OP would not describe any price gouging, and sure e-fuckin’-nough. See also “hypocrite” and “liar/lied/etc.” > **[Price gouging](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging)** > > Price gouging is a pejorative term for the practice of increasing the prices of goods, services, or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair by some. This commonly applies to price increases of basic necessities after natural disasters. Usually, this event occurs after a demand or supply shock. The term can also be used to refer to profits obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In some jurisdictions of the Unite... Selling something for seven times what other people sell for (turns out they charge insurance companies significantly less) might be considered unreasonable. I’m not paying $200 for the drug because I think that there is any difference in the efficacy or is in any way worth it. I am paying this amount because my mother in law feels nervous and I can afford it. But the fact remains that CVS is charging several times what they charge insurance companies and 7 times what Costco charges. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/56 "2011-09-23T23:52:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The truth is harsh, no doubt about it. But when someone has been shown the stupidity of their actions (as per the OP) and says that ‘you get what you pay for’ (as per the OP), then they deserve to suffer the consequences of their actions. As does everyone. > > And **Damuri** , if you are truly concerned about introducing more market forces into healthcare, then you should be a) against Obamacare and b) for the GOP proposals to introduce health savings accounts. Let people shop around. I think you misunderstand my point on that issue. I don’t think thd market is capable of operating efficiently in healthcare > [@](#): > > If you let the invisible hand do its magic, you’d be surprised how much better off the healthcare consumer would be. There is a big difference between a boob job and life saving medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/57 "2011-09-23T23:54:05Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > This should be something that her doctor explains to her. This would be where you, as her advocate, go to the doctor with her, explain this problem and have medical knowledge imparted. That your mother doesn’t have sufficient information to feel confident in a major health issue here isn’t CVS’s fault. Sure it is. They are the ones that have created the uncertainty. I’m not going to pressure my mother in law to take the stuff from Costco just so I can save a couple of bucks a day. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/58 "2011-09-24T00:02:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Dammit Mr. Smashy, take your “thinking” and “looking deeper into the facts” bullshit elsewhere! This is healthcare we are talking about! The way to debatew this issue is to grab whatever bullshit numbers appear to support your side if you don’t think about it very hard. What kind of doper are you, not knowing something as simple as that? Sure there are confounding factors involved. There always are. But it’s pretty hard to try and argue against the fact that heLth care costs per son are double what they are in other industrialized nations. How unhealthy do you think our lifestyle is compared to other industrialized nations that our health are costs are double. Sure life expectancy and child mOrtality rates dOnt tell the whole story. But you have not offered any better evidence proving the Oppisite. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/59 "2011-09-24T02:30:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, actually thinking myself about the issue instead of swallowing the left’s propaganda wholesale is “cooking up some wild ideological way to explain away reality.” I noticed you didn’t actually argue against what I said–is that because you are incapable of doing so? Argue what? Your vague, cite-less guess to explain the life expectancy and infant mortality statistics? How about this for an argument: vague, cite-less guesses are useless. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424/60 "2011-09-24T03:50:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure there are confounding factors involved. There always are. But it’s pretty hard to try and argue against the fact that heLth care costs per son are double what they are in other industrialized nations. How unhealthy do you think our lifestyle is compared to other industrialized nations that our health are costs are double. > > Sure life expectancy and child mOrtality rates dOnt tell the whole story. But you have not offered any better evidence proving the Oppisite. > [@sh1bu1](#): > > Argue what? Your vague, cite-less guess to explain the life expectancy and infant mortality statistics? How about this for an argument: vague, cite-less guesses are useless. You two are trying to support the argument that the US has a worse healthcare system than other countries. You try to support that argument with life expectancy and infant mortality statistics. It is a perfectly valid argument for me to show why the statistics you cite do not support your argument (and they don’t, not by a long shot, and for obvious reasons that are plain to anyone without your agenda). Here’s an illustration: say you guys watch a Nissan Altima and a Porsche 911 compete in a drag race and notice that the Porsche wins easily. You then tell me “Hey Rand Rover, the reason the Porsche won is that it only has 2 doors. It must be the case that the weight savings from the two fewer doors made the 911 faster. If other 4-door cars want to go faster, they should just remove 2 of their doors.” And then I say “the fact that the 911 beat the Altima doesn’t show that having only 2 doors makes a car faster. There are a lot of factors that go into how fast a car goes, such as the performance of the engine. You have failed to prove that having only 2 doors automatically makes a car faster.” That’s all I need to say to refute your argument. TLDR: You are trying to prove something, so prove it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-cvs-price-gouging/596424.md?page=4)