# I Pit damuriajashi and DemonTree **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 18, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300 "2020-12-18T00:49:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1063 "2025-04-23T23:20:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The culture they were forced to adopt was that of white Southerners. Heh. _Been in the Storm So Long_, a narrative (largely oral history) about the aftermath of slavery in the United States, has a section about attitudes toward work post-emancipation. Much of the text gives the rhetoric of white Northerners who were convinced that blacks would not work hard when given the usual incentives, and spent quite a bit of time preaching to them the ennobling effect of hard work on the character of the worker. (Many of these had a great deal of interest in maintaining the labor force for cash crops such as cotton…) But it also mentions the attitudes expressed by southern whites, many of whom were incensed at the fact that they would now have to do menial labor “like a n----r” (or even just dress themselves and cook their own meal) and complaining about what a dreadful and degraded state they were in as a consequence. So, yeah, perhaps that message got through loud and clear… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1064 "2025-04-24T15:21:52Z")
I like that I saw that crap on a place I moderate and was able to just force it to stop. Guy even apologized when he realized he might get banned, and we had a friendly conversation later. (Unlike the kid who wanted to post memes with the n-word and then harassed my friends for being “ugly”.) Of course, he’s young, admits he doesn’t know things, and was willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1065 "2025-05-06T10:28:14Z")
Meanwhile over in the “Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors” thread, DemonTree is once again shitting up the place: > [@Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/180): > > The irony is that this approach damages women far more in the long run than all the groups they purport to be afraid of, but then it’s not like it was ever about the welfare of women in the first place. > [@Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/181): > > In terms of damage to women, it’s no different to the idea women should be afraid of men in general, and that’s mainstream feminism and socially approved. > [@Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/182): > > Well, apart from the fact that the “socially approved mainstream feminism” version is evidence-based and is about empowering women, and the anti-trans (and anti- other groups) one is baseless fearmongering designed to disempower women. > [@Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/184): > > They arise from the same set of beliefs, and have equivalent effects on women. But that’s not what this thread is about. If you want to defend basing fear of different groups on whether they are more intersectionally disadvantaged than you, you can start another one. Suddenly she’s pretending that the same sort of toxic fearmongering transphobia she’s been pushing for years is bad, but mainstream feminism is exactly the same. And the only reason anyone would disagree is because of how “intersectionally disadvantaged” trans people are to cis women. I mean, we’ve already firmly established that she’s a lying morally bankrupt bigot but this is a whole new level of toxic bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1066 "2025-05-06T12:50:24Z")
Wait, what’s the phrase we can’t use anymore because we have to say “intersectionally disadvantaged” instead? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1067 "2025-05-06T12:54:54Z")
“I was run down while crossing an intersection?” 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1068 "2025-05-06T13:33:42Z")
The problem isn’t the terminology. The problem is the implication that my statement that “mainstream feminism” was not remotely the same as transphobic idiocy was based on how far removed from my personal experience each group was rather than being based on reality and on the fact that DT is a lying sack of shit. She appears to now be making the argument that everyone is oppressed and therefore we shouldn’t treat trans people as being of especial concern when they are subject to the types of oppression that DT has been justifying for years and is now pretending to oppose. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1069 "2025-05-09T12:22:20Z")
> [@Intersectionality and the Oppression Pyramid](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/intersectionality-and-the-oppression-pyramid/1018016/44): > > My issue is that when I bring up an easily observable dynamic, I get blanket denials and accusations that it’s all right-wing propaganda. It feels unpleasantly like being gaslit. Criticising it as too broad a brush, rather than denying it entirely, would be a much more constructive start to the conversation. I’m gonna post in ATMB about this, but accusing someone of gaslighting you is an accusing of a specific kind of nasty lying. It’s wholly inappropriate for GD. But it’s appropriate here, which is why I’m responding here. I don’t consider you an honest poster. I don’t think you’re aware of your dishonesty; I think you lie to yourself best of all; but your posts here show a remarkable lack of dedication to honesty. So your condescending criticisms of me don’t really land. If you want a constructive conversation, instead of telling me to start by pointing out how broad a brush you’re using, you should start by using a less broad brush yourself. It’s fucking bonkers to suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1070 "2025-05-09T13:10:19Z")
I’ve had a _ton_ of disagreements with Demon Tree - we have some very heated PM chains going back literally years where we bitterly argue over things like misgendering. I’m certain that in some of those older PMs, I accuse her of being a bad faith poster as well. After all this time, though, I still disagree with DemonTree on a bunch of stuff, but I really don’t think she’s a bad faith poster anymore. I don’t think your post is fair. Then again, I think you’ve said you don’t think I’m a good faith poster either, so I doubt you give much weight to my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1071 "2025-05-09T13:14:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Then again, I think you’ve said you don’t think I’m a good faith poster either, so I doubt you give much weight to my opinion. I’ve seen you vacillate pretty heavily between being thoughtful and considerate, and being balls-out terrible, and I’m never exactly sure which version I’m gonna get. In this case? I think you’re posting honestly, and I get what you’re saying. But I disagree about Demontree. She’s moderated somewhat, but her tendency toward accusing others of gaslighting when they disagree, of telling others how they should respond to her terrible arguments, and of refusing to acknowledge errors in her own posts make me disinclined to consider her a poster with integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1072 "2025-05-09T13:26:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I disagree about Demontree. She’s moderated somewhat, but her tendency toward accusing others of gaslighting when they disagree, of telling others how they should respond to her terrible arguments, and of refusing to acknowledge errors in her own posts make me disinclined to consider her a poster with integrity. I don’t think she accused you of gaslighting her. What she said, and I totally agree with this, is that when the dynamic we’ve all been discussing in the linked thread was first brought up, the immediate response from quote a number of sources was, as she said, blanket denials that this phenomenon exists, and suggestions that her belief that it _does_ is right wing paranoia. That situation - you describe something that you can clearly see and you’re told “it doesn’t exist” - _feels like_ gaslighting. Now, you’re one of the people who initially reacted with hostility to the idea of the “oppression pyramid”, but have offered some more nuanced takes about the dynamic from the intersectionality thread. But you’ve explained that from _your_ perspective (if I understand it correctly, and you can correct me if not), the original descriptions of a pyramid were hyperbolic to the point that you didn’t even recognize the dynamic we were describing; to you, it is _us_ who have changed our point in the Intersectionality thread. So maybe it’s not so much that you were intentionally denying the thing we clearly saw existed; it’s that both of our sides didn’t clearly understand the claim the other side was making. I can accept that there is a good faith explanation for our impasse at that time, but yes, it _did_ feel like being gaslit feels. For many people, who _don’t_ end up having a longer conversation about it and coming to a clearer understanding, that gaslit feeling may be _all_ they experience after their interaction with the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1073 "2025-05-09T13:33:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think she accused you of gaslighting her. It’s that pesky passive voice. She said it felt like “being gaslit.” Well, when you’re gaslit, someone’s doing the gaslighting. You don’t get gaslit by the laws of physics, and you don’t get gaslit by Mother Nature, and you don’t get gaslit by the Mississippi River. It’s a human who’s doing it. Which human? Her comment about “blanket denials” was made in response to a quote from me, who had denied her initial broad-brush comment. A little bit of Occams’ Razor gives me a pretty good idea of who she felt was gaslighting her. The clever use of the passive voice allowed her to avoid directly saying so, but it also gives me further reason to consider her a dishonest poster, and not be interested in engaging with her in a forum where I can’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1074 "2025-05-09T13:42:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > She said it felt like “being gaslit.” Well, when you’re gaslit, someone’s doing the gaslighting. You don’t get gaslit by the laws of physics, and you don’t get gaslit by Mother Nature, and you don’t get gaslit by the Mississippi River. It’s a human who’s doing it. Or, it’s what I explained in the rest of my rather lengthy post: > [@Babale](#): > > What she said, and I totally agree with this, is that when the dynamic we’ve all been discussing in the linked thread was first brought up, the immediate response from quote a number of sources was, as she said, blanket denials that this phenomenon exists, and suggestions that her belief that it _does_ is right wing paranoia. > > That situation - you describe something that you can clearly see and you’re told “it doesn’t exist” - _feels like_ gaslighting. I can also say that the discussion that brought all this up, in the initial thread and in my Pit thread, FELT LIKE gaslighting. I was pointing out a phenomenon that, in my opinion (and based on the latter thread, you agree) clearly exists, in what I felt were clear terms (based on the latter thread, you disagree with this) and I was met with a level of skepticism that seemed _entirely_ unwarranted for the claim I was making. That’s _exactly_ what gaslighting feels like. I continued to feel that way until ThingFish started engaging with the substance of what I was saying in the Pit thread, and then other people piggybacked onto that conversation. Afterwards, we continued talking, and it turned out to be a definitional issue. You agree that the phenomenon exists, you just don’t think the term “Pyramid of Oppression” properly evokes it. Fine; I can accept that, and try to be better about defining what I mean when situations like this arise in the future. Likewise, can you understand why from my perspective, the denials that this phenomenon existed (before I understood it was a miscommunication issue) _felt like_ gaslighting? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1075 "2025-05-09T13:42:20Z")
FWIW reading the thread in real time I felt she was talking about her reaction to the thread consensus as a whole, not just the particular post she was responding to. I didn’t feel like she was insulting you personally. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1076 "2025-05-09T13:44:18Z")
I should thank you, by the way; the civil conversation we started having in the Pit thread led to a lot more understanding with other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1077 "2025-05-09T13:48:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I disagree about Demontree. She’s moderated somewhat, but her tendency toward accusing others of gaslighting when they disagree, of telling others how they should respond to her terrible arguments, and of refusing to acknowledge errors in her own posts make me disinclined to consider her a poster with integrity. I think your opinion of her is overly colored by your disagreement with her. I also came into my original conversations with her with that kind of attitude, and like I said, many of those conversations got heated. But I have seen her honestly take in my points and adjust her views over time based on new information. I don’t think she’s bad faith. As you and I have clashed heads, I’ve had some of the same feelings towards you. There are times when someone takes a position that you cannot understand, and intrinsically, it _feels like_ they must be doing so in bad faith, because how else could they come to a different conclusion? I think that’s only human. But having felt that way about various people at various times, I think it’s not something to rely on. It’s good to routinely question all assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1078 "2025-05-09T13:50:35Z")
This feels like the right time to mention this one. My post: > [@Why have conservatives left this message board?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-conservatives-left-this-message-board/1017016/382): > > For a message board whose mission is fighting ignorance, it wasn’t even a remotely serious point in the way that you tried to make it. Is there some data you’d like others to consider – data that supports this position? I’ve admired a lot of your posts. This “social conservative” stuff, however, points to a deeply corrupted sector on your hard drive. Her reply: > [@Why have conservatives left this message board?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-have-conservatives-left-this-message-board/1017016/388): > > Me: I think it’s bad that young people seem to be more bigoted than old ones, and that people are being openly racist when they weren’t before. You: You must have a screw lose. woman_shrugging I think the phrases ‘corrupt sector’ and ‘screw loose’ have _very_ different connotations. ‘Corrupt sector --’ at least as I used it – implies cognitive biases and errors that tend to result in flawed and illogical processing of valid information; a powerful filter that tends to distort and result in erroneous conclusions. 'Screw loose," to me, is far more an accusation of a frank psychiatric disorder – not at all what I meant. Sometimes, it isn’t the hive mind piling on a poster who holds minority opinions, but a poster’s predisposition toward victimhood that we see. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1079 "2025-05-09T14:10:02Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Sometimes, it isn’t the hive mind piling on a poster who holds minority opinions, but a poster’s predisposition toward victimhood that we see. There are _definitely_ times when this is the case. However, this scenario - where you _only said she had a corrupted drive_, not a _screw loose_ - is hardly one of those. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1080 "2025-05-09T16:11:59Z")
Wait @Babale, this is **DemonTree** the one we are talking about here? I don’t think she “adjust her views over time based on new information.” > [@I Pit damuriajashi and DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1059): > > So, @Thing.Fish points to DemonTree that her point there was a racist one, as the talk was about educational performance between races. And then @DemonTree in a reply to him makes it worse man_facepalming Way to go, reply to someone pointing that using race there was not good, and then make it worse by using a bigoted and Antisemite point. What I did see there was very bad faith coming from Demonstree. and it is worse when one notices that she did not come back to explain why she did that. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1081 "2025-05-09T21:27:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > However, this scenario - where you _only said she had a corrupted drive_, not a _screw loose_ - is hardly one of those. Just speaking from an IT perspective, while saying a “corrupted sector” might be meant to only imply that there is a part of a person’s brain/personality that has trouble accepting and/or retaining certain kinds of information (due to bias), it can also indicate a mechanical problem with the hard drive itself. Which is like saying there is something wrong with a person’s brain. I’m just saying, it’s probably not the best metaphor to use when you’re not trying to be offensive, even when the other person has the technical knowledge to even get the reference. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2025, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300/1082 "2025-05-12T10:28:44Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > it can also indicate a mechanical problem with the hard drive itself. Which is like saying there is something wrong with a person’s brain. Yes, that is how I interpreted it. After I tried to assume it was merely a misunderstanding and replied in good faith to him, he insults me by saying my brain is broken. And of course there _is_ something wrong with my brain, since I’m autistic. But regardless, ‘you disagree with me because there’s something wrong with your brain/thoughts/perceptions’ is a non-argument that renders further discussion pointless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-damuriajashi-and-demontree/928300.md?page=55)