# I pit Disney's replacing American workers with foreign **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645 "2015-05-23T10:43:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/81 "2015-05-28T13:26:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If you lived in India or China and the opportunity to work in the US came up, would you take it? I certainly would and I won’t blame (or discourage) others for doing the same thing. I’m not blaming them; I’m blaming our government for letting our companies employ them in favor of US workers. The dodge that’s going on is a little more subtle than “Companies are hiring H1-B people to undercut US workers”. In the IT realm, it’s more like “Companies are outsourcing IT functions to consulting companies… who are competitive because they hire swarms of H1-B workers at depressed rates.” And using **Eva Luna’s** pay scale, I’m guessing the H1-B people are saying the going rate is that level 1 rate of 47k/yr, even though the average is around the Level 3 rate, which implies that there are a LOT of Level 4 and higher paid people, or nearly everyone is at that Level 3 rate. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/82 "2015-05-28T14:12:51Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > So I don’t think it’s really useful to look down one’s nose and say “tut tut, economists all agree that free trade is ultimately beneficial to all!” > > Who says that? > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Then they should do their best not to restrict these types of things, since free trade increases the overall standard of living and economic growth for both countries. […] > Seriously, I’m pointing out something that has an extremely strong consensus among economists. It’s nice that you’re now broadening your expressed attitude on the issue beyond _“economists agree free trade good protectionism bad so u r dumb & wrong”_, but it took some probing and cites of more nuanced and complex discussions to get us there. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Certainly any elimination of an inefficiency will be detrimental, at least in the short term, to those who enjoyed the benefit of it. We should provide reasonable care for such unfortunates. What we shouldn’t do is fight the losing fight some propose, especially when in doing so it unfavorably impacts the nation in the aggregate and the battle is at some point inevitably lost. Once again, though, “at some point” we’re all dead. If the higher-paid workers who benefit from an inefficiency vis-a-vis lower-paid workers in a less developed country can manage to stave off "elimination of the inefficiency’’ for their own working lifetimes, it makes sound practical economic sense for them to do so, from their point of view. It is kind of an eyeroller how nobody ever seems to expect wealthy CEOs to forego free-market-distorting inefficiencies that are financially beneficial to them personally for the sake of the greater public economic good. Whereas workers, on the other hand, are constantly being scolded for selfishness and shortsightedness when they oppose economic measures that will hurt them personally in the short run. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/83 "2015-05-28T14:39:23Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not blaming them; I’m blaming our government for letting our companies employ them in favor of US workers. > > The dodge that’s going on is a little more subtle than “Companies are hiring H1-B people to undercut US workers”. In the IT realm, it’s more like “Companies are outsourcing IT functions to consulting companies… who are competitive because they hire swarms of H1-B workers at depressed rates.” > > And using **Eva Luna’s** pay scale, I’m guessing the H1-B people are saying the going rate is that level 1 rate of 47k/yr, even though the average is around the Level 3 rate, which implies that there are a LOT of Level 4 and higher paid people, or nearly everyone is at that Level 3 rate. One place where there is wiggle room is underclassifying a job and/or hiring someone overqualified for the job. For example, hiring a fresh master’s grad at the Level 1 rate, but stating that the job is actually entry-level. But H-1B workers, in my 15+ years of experience preparing H-1B petitions, tend to be people at the beginning of their careers, so they will naturally be lower on the pay scale. Oversimplifying a bit, there’s a 6-year cumulative maximum in H-1B status, so if you haven’t reached a certain point in the green card process by then, you either need to find some other kind of immigration status or leave the U.S. So you won’t find, for example, people 20 years into their careers in H-1B status for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/84 "2015-05-28T21:30:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s nice that you’re now broadening your expressed attitude on the issue beyond _“economists agree free trade good protectionism bad so u r dumb & wrong”_, but it took some probing and cites of more nuanced and complex discussions to get us there. Can you read? Did you read your own cites? You know what, never mind. Thanks for letting me know what kind of poster you are. Please proceed with your non sequiturs and straw men to your heart’s delight. ---
**Author:** ![SlickRoenick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SlickRoenick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlickRoenick)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/85 "2015-06-17T20:03:07Z")
Disney is reversing its decision > **[In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-cancels-tech-worker-layoffs.html?_r=0)** > > Employees who were previously laid off and had to train their foreign replacements have had their jobs restored with no explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/86 "2015-06-17T21:02:35Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > It depends. For example, [here’s](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=36740&code=15-1132&year=15&source=1) what the Department of Labor thinks the going wage is for software applications developers in the Orlando metro area. (Level 1 generally means entry level for someone with a related bachelor’s degree, plus up to ~ 2 years of experience. Level 4 is senior level.) Two things: 1. Those numbers are at least 5-15K low. We can’t hire people at those salaries here in Tallahassee - which has a lower COL than Orlando. 2. One of the tricks Disney and other companies use is that they don’t hire H1-B workers. They “outsource” to a company that hires H1-B. I believe this is specifically to get around the “you have to pay H1-Bs the same as the people they replace” requirement. ETA: No, Disney has not reversed their decision in Orlando. They cancelled a planned _additional_ round of layoffs in New York. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/87 "2015-06-17T21:02:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Any of the above, really. What are our competitive advantages? Americans are at a cultural advantage when it comes to management. We also have access to schools that teach super-specialized technical niches, and there are some opportunities there. And there is always the opportunity to become just that good. > > With increased connectivity and prosperity in the world, it’s just going to get more and more competitive. Competitive people are going to have to think hard about what they can contribute, not just what they expect to get. Other countries aen’t going to leave you the specialized technical niches or the management position for long, anyway. And as it’s extremely often pointed out, not everybody can work in specialized niches or management. By definition, there can be only a minority of people in such positions. And besides, half of the people are less intelligent than the average, half of the people are less able to manage a career track than the average, etc… So, _some_ people, on an individual basis, can make themselves more valuable. The wide majority won’t be able to. I can’t see how the citizens of western countries, as a whole, could not see their standard of living go down when the standards of living in other countries goes up. Some are going to say that it’s not a zero sum game, that the pie is growing larger, etc…but it’s not growing remotely quickly enough to ensure that we could keep those standards of living. And besides, there’s a blatantly obvious trend all over the world, in China as in the USA as in Sweden, in countries with a robust growth as well as in stagnating countries : income and wealth inequalities are increasing quickly. Even when it becomes larger, a minority gets larger and larger shares of the pie, and a majority gets smaller and smaller shares of it. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/88 "2015-06-17T22:18:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t support it, but there is nothing I can do about it. We can cap H-1B visas. Problem solved. Scrap it, not cap it. Adjust the green card lottery as needed, if labor requirements are not being met. Its good for North America, its good for the world. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/89 "2015-06-17T23:59:28Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Two things: > > 1. Those numbers are at least 5-15K low. We can’t hire people at those salaries here in Tallahassee - which has a lower COL than Orlando. Well, talk to the DOL about that. Those figures are based on info that is published annually in July, and gathered before that. Of course numbers fluctuate over time, especially in a volatile economy. For some jobs (yes, including IT jobs) here in Chicago, last July’s numbers were significantly down from the year before. Others weren’t. And the figures are based on salary surveys, not cost of living. > [@](#): > > 1. One of the tricks Disney and other companies use is that they don’t hire H1-B workers. They “outsource” to a company that hires H1-B. I believe this is specifically to get around the “you have to pay H1-Bs the same as the people they replace” requirement. I agree that this is a totally sucky tactic. And depending on what proportion of the consulting company’s employees are H-1B workers, they are also supposed to attest that the consultants are not displacing U.S. workers. I have absolutely no problem with better enforcement of that kind of thing. And believe me, petitions for IT consultants are scrutinized quite closely these days, even for those who are not working for large job shops of the sort that tends to displace U.S. workers. I’ve done H-1Bs recently for a small local IT consulting company that has a lot of bona fide, competitively bid contracts with local government orgs that simply don’t have - and do not wish to acquire - staff with this person’s specific expertise (the employer has less than 50 employees). We just did a 2nd H-1B extension for an employee, and for the 3rd time, USCIS has requested documentation of exactly what projects he will be assigned to, who his supervisor will be and whether that person is also an employee of the petitioning employer, his role on each project, and its end date. I feel like it’s Groundhog Day. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/90 "2015-06-18T00:02:41Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Scrap it, not cap it. [It’s already capped.](It’s already capped.) 65,000 annually (with some very limited exceptions for higher education employers), plus an additional 20,000 for people with master’s and higher-level degrees awarded by U.S. institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/91 "2015-06-18T00:47:33Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > [It’s already capped.](It’s already capped.) [For now](http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25516535/h-1b-visa-cap-reached-after-just-five): > [@](#): > > [Last year], representatives from Yahoo, Cisco Systems, NetApp, Hewlett-Packard and other Bay Area companies met with about 65 members of Congress to discuss H-1B and related issues, Lam said. Most of the lawmakers they talked to were in the House, she said, since the Senate already has passed a bill, which besides reforming various aspects of immigration law would increase the number of visas to between 115,000 and 180,000 a year, depending on economic factors. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/92 "2015-06-18T01:08:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [For now](http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_25516535/h-1b-visa-cap-reached-after-just-five): That’s still a cap. [The cap was at that level during the tech boom, too](http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1bvisacaph1bquotasystem/ref/1568/), but the increase in the cap sunset. Frankly, I am not crying for all the overpaid tech workers. There are lots of jobs that require similar levels of technical education but pay less. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/93 "2015-06-18T14:41:04Z")
I like that Buzz Lightyear ride. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/94 "2015-06-18T15:50:35Z")
I think this story is news only because it happened at Disney. Corporations I’ve worked for have been abusing the H1-B process for at least 20 years: always petitioning congress to raise the limits, because of a “shortage” of qualified workers…and using it to replace well-paid Americans with underpaid Indians. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/95 "2015-06-18T15:54:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They were paid to train their replacements, not forced. Severance pay is at the discretion of the employer. If you want to use SPECIAL EMPHASIS on the words you use, you should use them correctly. I would say that the loss of severance pay is forcing. It sure as hell is not an incentive. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/96 "2015-06-18T16:00:54Z")
Sure it is. The default is _not_ receiving severance pay. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/97 "2015-06-18T16:03:19Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think this story is news only because it happened at Disney. Corporations I’ve worked for have been abusing the H1-B process for at least 20 years: always petitioning congress to raise the limits, because of a “shortage” of qualified workers…and using it to replace well-paid Americans with underpaid Indians. There’s only a shortage if you can’t hire a worker at any price. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/98 "2015-06-18T17:36:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure it is. The default is _not_ receiving severance pay. They usually do not give severance, but they are offering it if the people will train the new guys? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/99 "2015-06-18T18:05:03Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think this story is news only because it happened at Disney. Corporations I’ve worked for have been abusing the H1-B process for at least 20 years: always petitioning congress to raise the limits, because of a “shortage” of qualified workers…and using it to replace well-paid Americans with underpaid Indians. I suspect that one reason Disney is retreating, besides the bad press, is that the Silicon Valley companies pushing for a raise in the cap were pissed at this action. It is hard to say they need a raise because of the shortage of workers when a bunch of the visas are used to replace workers. There are definitely cases when H1Bs are used to fill jobs for which there are shortages, and using them to employ people we’ve trained in grad school makes a lot of sense. But the majority of the H1B pool is gobbled up by Indian contracting companies. They’re not the ones testifying before congress on shortages, of course. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645/100 "2015-06-18T18:58:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nobody seems to be offering any actual evidence that these workers are paid less than the going rate. As I said earlier: Isn’t the proof the fact that they are bringing new people in to train them. Why else would they do that at the scale at which they are? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-disneys-replacing-american-workers-with-foreign/720645.md?page=6)