# I pit dog show freaks, especially in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295 "2010-11-20T02:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/101 "2010-11-22T22:22:06Z")
I still can’t work out why Stoid is getting up folks from the UK in this thread. She made some comment which in an overall context made as much sense as her comments usually do. Kambuckta tried to get things on line. I have a cat with a “squished in” face. I guess it was bred as a show cat. It is a pet who doesn’t know it is butt ugly and the other cat laughs at it behind its back. They seem contented. (FWIW I would never buy a pure bred animal that is maintaining inbred problems. I have never shown an animal- except my dark side at a Happy Hour. But, like the Giant Rat of Sumatra, the world is not yet ready for that). ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/102 "2010-11-22T22:30:33Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > (My emphasis.) > > Um, wouldn’t that be your Dad? If by “raised” you mean bred, or bought puppies from breeders - in either case, creating more demand for these extremely deformed animals is perpetuating the same issues. Are you suggesting that I am morally obligated to shoot my Dad? :rolleyes: Trust me, he knows my feelings on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/103 "2010-11-22T23:08:13Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Are you suggesting that I am morally obligated to shoot my Dad? \ Aren’t we all, sooner or later? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/104 "2010-11-23T00:27:33Z")
Re: incest taboos in animals. Some kinds of animals enforce such a taboo simply in the social structure, as will elephants: once males start to reach sexual maturity, they are booted out, thereby ensuring there won’t be any hanky-panky among close relatives. The same with gorillas and many other social species, boys gotta go before they start humping their sisters. ---
**Author:** ![steve1456](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steve1456](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steve1456)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/105 "2010-11-23T01:15:43Z")
You have seen it for what it is ! ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/106 "2010-11-23T05:07:58Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So as long as you can make a claim, regardless of whether or not it’s backed up in fact, it’s a valid motivation? I think **Malthus** is talking about motives here. People _think_ they are breeding hypoallergenic cats; while that is incorrect, the hypothetical idea of breeding a freaky-looking but less allergy-causing cat is less morally problematic than breading a freaky-looking cat for the sake of freakiness. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Aren’t we all, sooner or later? No, no, no. Why can’t you people ever get it straight? You shoot your _grandfather_. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/107 "2010-11-23T06:19:36Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > \ > No, no, no. Why can’t you people ever get it straight? You shoot your _grandfather_. …Oh. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/108 "2010-11-23T10:25:14Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > No, no, no. Why can’t you people ever get it straight? You shoot your _grandfather_. OK, so why did you wait to tell me until he’d died? _shakes fist at **Malleus** _ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/109 "2010-11-23T13:37:52Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > No, no, no. Why can’t you people ever get it straight? You shoot your _grandfather_. The difficult part is finding the time machine. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/110 "2010-11-23T15:25:14Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I still can’t work out why Stoid is getting up folks from the UK in this thread. From what I’ve been able to glean, somehow the people in the U.K. who track what traits are “desirable” in a breed are even worse that the comparable organizations in other countries. Or something. > [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I think **Malthus** is talking about motives here. People _think_ they are breeding hypoallergenic cats; while that is incorrect, the hypothetical idea of breeding a freaky-looking but less allergy-causing cat is less morally problematic than breading a freaky-looking cat for the sake of freakiness. Of course he’s talking about motives. And I’m saying, if your “motive” is based in a “fact” that would be revealed as false with even two seconds of research on fucking _Wikipedia_, it’s not a mitigating factor, anymore than the “fact” that Jews were responsible for the economic collapse of Germany was a valid reason for the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/111 "2010-11-23T15:50:31Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Of course he’s talking about motives. And I’m saying, if your “motive” is based in a “fact” that would be revealed as false with even two seconds of research on fucking _Wikipedia_, it’s not a mitigating factor, anymore than the “fact” that Jews were responsible for the economic collapse of Germany was a valid reason for the Holocaust. It isn’t obvious that the “fact” is wrong. While hair may not itself be the cause of allergens, the protiens which cause allergens are - allegedly by some - more widely distributed by the shedding of hairs and dander. Thus, a hairless cat means less protiens in the environment (or so the theory goes), and those with middling allergies would benefit from a hairless cat. This can be discovered with the proverbial “two second research on fucking _Wikipedia_”. > **[Cat allergy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_allergy)** > > Cat allergy may refer to: > [@](#): > > A hypoallergenic cat is a cat which is less likely to provoke an allergic reaction in humans. There has been a disputed claim based on antigen research that the Siberian and Russian Blue breeds may be naturally hypoallergenic; a small study involving Siberians and Abyssinians revealed significantly lower levels of Fel d1 in a very small number of the cats than in an average mixed breed tested. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that Abyssinians have been successfully owned by people with confirmed cat allergies. This may be helped by the breed’s short, fine hair and relatively unusual shedding patterns, as they shed very little and moult yearly instead; this reduces airborne dander. \*\*Similarly, cat breeds such as the LaPerm, Sphynx, Oriental Shorthair, Devon Rex, and Cornish Rex, which lack some of the normal layers of cat fur, are generally held by mild allergy sufferers to be significantly less likely than other breeds to provoke an allergic reaction. \*\* Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/112 "2010-11-23T15:51:43Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I think **Malthus** is talking about motives here. People _think_ they are breeding hypoallergenic cats; while that is incorrect, the hypothetical idea of breeding a freaky-looking but less allergy-causing cat is less morally problematic **than breading a freaky-looking cat for the sake of freakiness**. > > No, no, no. Why can’t you people ever get it straight? You shoot your _grandfather_. Oh. Ummmm . . . but Panko crumbs are OK, right?!? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/113 "2010-11-23T16:39:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It isn’t obvious that the “fact” is wrong. “Similarly, cat breeds such as the LaPerm, Sphynx, Oriental Shorthair, Devon Rex, and Cornish Rex, which lack some of the normal layers of cat fur, are **generally held by mild allergy sufferers** to be significantly less likely than other breeds to provoke an allergic reaction.” Emphasis added. (And to the rest of these.) And let’s look at the very beginning of the article on cat allergies: “Cat allergy in humans is an allergic reaction to one or more of the five known allergens produced by cats. \*\*The most common \*\*of these are the glycoprotein Fel d 1, secreted by the cat’s \*\*sebaceous glands \*\*and Fel d 4, which is expressed in **saliva**.” So, tell me again what hair has to do with sebum or spit? Oh, wait, not having hair actually makes the sebum problem _ **worse** _… And here’s a nice gem from the Sphynx article itself: “ **Body oils** , which would normally be absorbed by the hair, \*\*tend to build up \*\*on the skin. […] Those with cat allergies **may react worse to direct contact with Sphynx cats than other breeds**. However, conflicting reports of some people successfully tolerating Sphynx cats also exist. However, these positive reports **may be cases of desensitizing** , wherein the ‘hairless’ cat gave the owner optimism to try and own a cat, eventually leading to the positive situation of their own adaptation.” \*Anecdotes \*say that some people don’t react that badly. \*Science \*says Sphynxes will cause \*worse \*reactions for the majority of people with cat allergies. Fighting fucking ignorance, indeed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/114 "2010-11-23T16:53:32Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > “Similarly, cat breeds such as the LaPerm, Sphynx, Oriental Shorthair, Devon Rex, and Cornish Rex, which lack some of the normal layers of cat fur, are **generally held by mild allergy sufferers** to be significantly less likely than other breeds to provoke an allergic reaction.” > > Emphasis added. (And to the rest of these.) > > And let’s look at the very beginning of the article on cat allergies: “Cat allergy in humans is an allergic reaction to one or more of the five known allergens produced by cats. \*\*The most common \*\*of these are the glycoprotein Fel d 1, secreted by the cat’s \*\*sebaceous glands \*\*and Fel d 4, which is expressed in **saliva**.” > > So, tell me again what hair has to do with sebum or spit? Oh, wait, not having hair actually makes the sebum problem _ **worse** _… > > And here’s a nice gem from the Sphynx article itself: > > “ **Body oils** , which would normally be absorbed by the hair, \*\*tend to build up \*\*on the skin. […] Those with cat allergies **may react worse to direct contact with Sphynx cats than other breeds**. However, conflicting reports of some people successfully tolerating Sphynx cats also exist. However, these positive reports **may be cases of desensitizing** , wherein the ‘hairless’ cat gave the owner optimism to try and own a cat, eventually leading to the positive situation of their own adaptation.” > > \*Anecdotes \*say that some people don’t react that badly. \*Science \*says Sphynxes will cause \*worse \*reactions for the majority of people with cat allergies. > > Fighting fucking ignorance, indeed. :rolleyes: They are _both speculative and/or anecodal_. Neither is “science”, since neither is sourced, or indeed more inherently believable or likely than the other. Here is the only souce sited by your "scientific’ article for the hypo-allergenicy of the Sphynx: [http://www.ankhamun.com/Hypoallergenic%20cats.htm](http://www.ankhamun.com/Hypoallergenic%20cats.htm) The cited “science” in its entirety: > [@](#): > > The major misconception about the Sphynx is that because they have no hair they are “hypoallergenic”. In my opinion, nothing could be further from the truth! In fact, in many cases I believe that the Sphynx is HYPER-allergenic. Dr. David Rosenstreich, MD is the director of the Division of Allergy and Immunology at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx, NY. To quote Dr. Rosenstreich, “The thing that is allergenic in cats is a protein or a substance that comes from their sebaceous and anal glands. When they lick themselves, they coat their body with this material which then dries up and comes off them in cloud of small particles.” Combine that with the fact that the skin oils come directly into contact with whomever is petting the cat. Some people will react right away, others have a delayed reaction a day after having come into contact with a Sphynx. Yes, there are some allergic people that can tolerate a Sphynx, but my feeling is that they are fewer than more. I’m reminded of the Maine Coon breeder who held a sweaty Sphynx in a hot show hall, wiped her face afterwards, and blew up like a balloon. I have seen other people have similar violent allergic reactions to a Sphynx. As far back as 1969 articles about the Sphynx have addressed the allergy issue, all of them stating that while it could be felt that a hairless cat would be suitable for people with allergies that was not necessarily the case. I feel that to advertise Sphynx as “hypoallergenic” is unethical and misleading to the public. Why should we be valuing what this person “feels” and “has seen” over someone else? Thus is revealed the problem with using Wikipedia as a source for making dogmatic and absolutist claims on a controversial issue. “The Science” indeed! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/115 "2010-11-23T17:12:38Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > Must be you didn’t see the “dogs jumping on people” thread Link? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/116 "2010-11-23T17:29:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They are _both speculative and/or anecodal_. Are you fucking _retarded_? We \*\*know \*\*what causes cat allergies, and it isn’t their fucking hair. It’s most commonly caused by **proteins in their sebum and saliva**. What do hairless cats have as much of, if not more than, other cats? Oh, shit, that’s right: **skin oils and spit**. This isn’t opinion–this is fact. Also, you fucked up “hyper” versus “hypo.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/117 "2010-11-23T19:20:38Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Are you fucking _retarded_? We \*\*know \*\*what causes cat allergies, and it isn’t their fucking hair. It’s most commonly caused by **proteins in their sebum and saliva**. What do hairless cats have as much of, if not more than, other cats? Oh, shit, that’s right: **skin oils and spit**. This isn’t opinion–this is fact. > > Also, you fucked up “hyper” versus “hypo.” Yeah, I made a typo. Yay. You, on the other hand, are: (1) insisting that a freaking _Wiki article_ is “scientific proof”, even after the cite has been _shown_ to be quite literally based on someones’ rememberance of what once happened to a Main Coon cat breeder; and (2) Mistaking what the argument is. The argument is that there is at least a reasonable basis for thinking that no-hair breeds are less allergenic. On review, the _allegation as to why_ is that, because they lack hair, on which the protiens which cause the allergy stick, the person owning the cat is going to have a less allergy-laden _environment_ and thus be less prone to allergic reactions. The presence of fur causes the cat to groom itself, spreading allergen-laden hair about. The counter-argument is that this effect either doesn’t matter, or is counter-balanced by the direct exposure to the cat’s saliva. Now, I’m not saying one is right or the other wrong - I dunno. Point is, quite obviously neither do you, since the only “cite” you have cited is freaking Wikipedia, which provides both theories, and the one you favour as “scientific” and thus obviously right - indeed, as obviously right as to draw a comparison with the Jews and Hitler - is based on a quote from some person whose sum total of scientific evidence is, and to quote: > [@](#): > > Yes, there are some allergic people that can tolerate a Sphynx, but my feeling is that they are fewer than more. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/118 "2010-11-23T19:21:55Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I still can’t work out why Stoid is getting up folks from the UK in this thread. She made some comment which in an overall context made as much sense as her comments usually do. Probably mostly because the documentary that caused her to post the thread in the first place is a BBC documentary about British dog showers and breeders. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/119 "2010-11-23T19:28:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > (1) insisting that a freaking _Wiki article_ is “scientific proof”, even after the cite has been _shown_ to be quite literally based on someones’ rememberance of what once happened to a Main Coon cat breeder; Uh, no I’m not. You’re making up an argument and then assigning it to me. My point is that a quick Wiki search shows you the actual source of cat allergies, which isn’t hair. If you care to refute the scientific fucking fact that it’s proteins in sebum and saliva that are the most common triggers, though, be my fucking guest. > [@](#): > > The argument is that there is at least a reasonable basis for thinking that no-hair breeds are less allergenic. On review, the _allegation as to why_ is that, because they lack hair, on which the protiens which cause the allergy stick, the person owning the cat is going to have a less allergy-laden _environment_ and thus be less prone to allergic reactions. The \*cat itself \*still causes as much, or more, of an allergic reaction. The idea isn’t that the cat makes the environment less likely to trigger an attack, but that the cat itself is less likely to do so (which it fucking isn’t). Otherwise, you might as well argue that it’s equally valid to keep a cat locked in a 12" x 4" x 4" cage for its entire life, because that would make it “hypoallergenic” by preventing it from shedding anywhere in the house. You fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295/120 "2010-11-23T19:37:56Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > My favorite ones to really scoff at are the “designer” breeds (aka mutts to people with brains - _hybrids_ if ask the “breeder” aka puppy mill), where they take the most problem breeds and cross them, as if that’s a good thing. > > Ever seen a Puginese? They sell for $800-$1200, and are pretty much guaranteed to end up with a proptosed eye, which most likely will end up with needing the eye removed. If by some grace they never have an eye pop out of their heads, they still have any of a myriad of other eye problems. Aside from being brachycephalic, which IMO is a big problem by itself. > > Just. Stupid. Your post really brings me back. When I was a veterinary student I was in the ICU when a peka-something went into cardiac arrest. With the first chest compression, its eyes just flew out of its skull and prolapsed. That’s a mental image I’ll never lose. The only saving grace is that they’re about as easy to get back in as they are coming out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dog-show-freaks-especially-in-the-uk/561295.md?page=7)