# I pit Dr. Gosnell (babykiller)(alledged) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391 "2011-01-20T23:21:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/1 "2011-01-20T23:21:30Z")
Dr. Gosnell, 69 years old, was charged Wednesday with eight murders—those of the woman who was overdosed and of seven babies whose spinal cords were severed with scissors after they were born alive at the Women’s Medical Society in Philadelphia. He also was charged with drug violations, infanticide, abortion at 24 or more weeks, racketeering and other offenses. Thats just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/2 "2011-01-20T23:52:53Z")
Dan Savage did a really excellent blog on this incident last night. The original post here is lame as fuck, but we can still use the topic as a springboard for real conversation. The important thing to focus on is not the morality of late-term abortions, but rather the lack of cleanliness standards of the facility, the fact that at least one woman died there under shady circumstances (for which the good doctor is being prosecuted… I think), and that the doctor kept aborted babies’ severed feet as some kind of sick fucking trophy. The only reason this place existed, though, was because of PA’s shitty abortion laws. If a poor woman legitimately NEEDS a late-term abortion (such as, because the fetus has no brain or the mother will die if she carries the child to term), it’s really hard to get one in PA. That’s the real topic that should be under pitcussion. Whereas a rich woman could afford to travel to get this kind of thing taken care of, a poor woman ends up sentenced either to death, or to get an abortion at a back alley motherfucker’s office… like this one. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/3 "2011-01-20T23:59:22Z")
A rich woman can even _barely_ travel to have a medically necessary late term abortion now - that guy who was assassinated for doing it was the second to last real provider, I read. These are women who largely _desperately want_ their babies and have to abort them because of serious medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/4 "2011-01-21T00:06:46Z")
Can I get the lame as fuck ribbon for my vest? ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/5 "2011-01-21T01:08:59Z")
You wear a vest? Lame. But seriously, you didn’t even fucking say what you were pitting. It’d be like creating a pit thread saying “Adolf Hitler was charged with war crimes against humanity, the killing of a gazillion jews, and performing unethical medical experiments on prisoners of war. Thats[sic] just wrong.” Don’t do that. It’s fucking lame. We all know it’s wrong, but the onus is on the thread creator to say why THEY think it’s wrong. Otherwise, you just look like a shill for the topic or news article in question, or a troll. > [@](#): > > A rich woman can even barely travel to have a medically necessary late term abortion now - that guy who was assassinated for doing it was the second to last real provider, I read. > **[Late Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help](https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2009/06/02/lateterm-abortions-facts-stories-and-ways-help/)** > > In all the extensive coverage of the assassination in his church of Dr. George Tiller by a murderer affiliated with extremist right-wing groups, little has been said to shed light on what late-term abortions are, who has them and why.   It may be true that he was the second to last provider in KANSAS, but I can’t confirm that. There are more late term abortion providers than you think. Of course it varies wildly depending on the state in which you reside, but if you live in a shitty state and you can afford to travel, then you can have a late-term abortion. If you can’t afford to travel, then you are consigned to put your health at risk by either giving birth, or going to baby butchers like Gosnell. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/6 "2011-01-21T01:47:06Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > You wear a vest? Lame. > > But seriously, you didn’t even fucking say what you were pitting. It’d be like creating a pit thread saying “Adolf Hitler was charged with war crimes against humanity, the killing of a gazillion jews, and performing unethical medical experiments on prisoners of war. Thats[sic] just wrong.” Don’t do that. It’s fucking lame. We all know it’s wrong, but the onus is on the thread creator to say why THEY think it’s wrong. Otherwise, you just look like a shill for the topic or news article in question, or a troll. > . Hey, thanks, this is kind of fun, isn’t it? You taking a newbie under your wing, 'splaining things, it is nice. Well, actually I pitted this to get it out there for discussion, I did not see another thread. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/7 "2011-01-21T03:24:44Z")
Apparently [The National Abortion Federation was aware of the clinic’s deficiencies](http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2011/01/jill-stanek-beats-me-to-it-verifies.html) but didn’t do anything to try to warn the public or authorities. [This article](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110119/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_clinic_investigation) notes, “State regulators ignored complaints about Gosnell and the 46 lawsuits filed against him, and made just five annual inspections, most satisfactory, since the clinic opened in 1979. **The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office.** ” This guy’s case is a pretty good example of the exploitation of the poor and desperate that occurs in the abortion industry. This guy figured he could get away with taking advantage of poor and minority women, and he did for quite some time, even though there were abortion advocates who knew what was going on. This is a great example of how not everyone who believes in abortion is “pro-woman” (and likewise not all of us who are against abortion are anti-woman - who would want a woman they cared about to end up dealing with someone like this guy?) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/8 "2011-01-21T04:42:51Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > This is a great example of how not everyone who believes in abortion is “pro-woman” (and likewise not all of us who are against abortion are anti-woman - who would want a woman they cared about to end up dealing with someone like this guy?) While this is indeed evidence that not all those who support abortion are pro-women the second part of your statement is a logical leap. It has no bearing on whether all those who are opposed to abortion (rights) are anti-women. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/9 "2011-01-21T04:45:22Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Dan Savage did a really excellent blog on this incident last night. The original post here is lame as fuck, but we can still use the topic as a springboard for real conversation. > > The important thing to focus on is not the morality of late-term abortions Except that from what I’ve read, he was delivering the babies alive and then killing them (severing the spinal cord by stabbing them). I don’t think it’s fair to call that an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/10 "2011-01-21T05:04:26Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > A rich woman can even _barely_ travel to have a medically necessary late term abortion now - that guy who was assassinated for doing it was the second to last real provider, I read. These are women who largely _desperately want_ their babies and have to abort them because of serious medical reasons. The last “open” one is Dr. Warren Hern at the Boulder Abortion Clinic (where I used to work), but as **rachelellogram** points out, there are probably some that are not as open and available to their patients only. What this particular doctor was doing, according to the reports I’ve read (and assuming the reports are true) were not medically necessary late-term abortion procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/11 "2011-01-21T05:18:01Z")
Obviously the official view is that these were not abortions at all, but murders. Some would say that killing procedures conducted just slightly earlier in the birthing process are not so different. Possibly that is the “morality of late-term abortions” discussion that **rachel** does not wish to get into, though I notice she does refer to “aborted babies’ severed feet,” apparently equating infanticide following an indisputable live birth with those legal partial-birth abortions in which the health of the mother can be an _active_ concern vis-à-vis the disposal of the baby. (In other words, while the health of mothers may well be still endangered after giving birth, particularly in difficult or unsanitary conditions, _killing the baby at that point_ assuredly cannot help her.) ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/12 "2011-01-21T09:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > These are women who largely desperately want their babies and have to abort them because of serious medical reason zsofia, DEAD ON. I wish people understood that late term abortions are the same thing as “turning off the life support machines” on someone who is braindead. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/13 "2011-01-21T10:28:21Z")
I suspect that if women underwent more tests earlier on in their pregnancy, late-term abortions wouldn’t be as neccessary. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/14 "2011-01-21T14:53:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Obviously the official view is that these were not abortions at all, but murders. > > Some would say that killing procedures conducted just slightly earlier in the birthing process are not so different. > > Possibly that is the “morality of late-term abortions” discussion that **rachel** does not wish to get into, though I notice she does refer to “aborted babies’ severed feet,” apparently equating infanticide following an indisputable live birth with those legal partial-birth abortions in which the health of the mother can be an _active_ concern vis-à-vis the disposal of the baby. (In other words, while the health of mothers may well be still endangered after giving birth, particularly in difficult or unsanitary conditions, _killing the baby at that point_ assuredly cannot help her.) Part of me wanted to bring up this issue but considering the backlash that we have seen with people associating the Tucson shooting with a vitriolic political environment, I didn’t really want to link legal late term abortions with what this guy was doing. I guess for some people life doesn’t really begin until the last little bit of a baby is out of the birth canal and then it becomes murder. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/15 "2011-01-21T15:13:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suspect that if women underwent more tests earlier on in their pregnancy, late-term abortions wouldn’t be as neccessary. You’re probably right. Sadly, poor pregnant women in the US often find it difficult to get a high quality of OB/GYN care. For that matter, poor _people_ find it difficult to get high-quality medical care of any sort. On the other hand, even the best medical care wouldn’t eliminate the occurrence of late-term crises requiring abortion. For that matter, some women will face such overwhelming social/family pressure that it takes months for them to get to the point that they _can_ have an abortion. My point being that improved access to care for indigent women, while absolutely desirable, would not eliminate the need for legal and safe late-term abortions. As for Dr. Gosnell - he’s scum, pure and simple. But this doesn’t discredit providers of late-term abortions as a whole any more than a batch of defective antibiotics coming out of a shady factory would discredit the pharmaceutical industry, or the existence of bad cops means that police as a whole are bad. There are bad actors everywhere - this one just happens to be a doctor. (Though not, one hopes, for very much longer). ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/16 "2011-01-21T15:27:33Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > zsofia, DEAD ON. I wish people understood that late term abortions are the same thing as “turning off the life support machines” on someone who is braindead. Sometimes they are. There was a (British I think) case a while back where a baby got aborted late due to a cleft lip. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/17 "2011-01-21T15:50:11Z")
If the allegations are true, he’s a grubby backstreet abortionist and murderer and has only added fuel to the pro-life fire. We’ve already had Tillman killed- we don’t need any more good doctors targeted because of assholes like this. Not only did he kill newborn infants and seriously endanger the lives of women he has also damaged the cause of those fighting for choice. Late-term abortion should be safe and legal and performed by properly trained professionals. None of which happened there. Scum. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/18 "2011-01-21T15:51:20Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Sometimes they are. > > There was a (British I think) case a while back where a baby got aborted late due to a cleft lip. I’d be surprised. Under British law since 1990, abortion is illegal after 24 weeks with exceptions to save the woman’s life, evidence of extreme foetal abnormality, or a grave risk of physical or mental injury to the woman. Now it is possible this meant a fetus with a cleft lip was aborted late term, but **only** if a doctor determined that it had a grave risk of causing physical or mental injury to the woman carrying it. Which means the reason wouldn’t really be the cleft lip, would it? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/19 "2011-01-21T16:01:45Z")
Cleft lip and palate can be associated with various syndromes which would fall under the umbrella of “serious foetal abnormality”. Just because the listed abnormality was cleft lip and palate, doesn’t mean it was the only indication for the abortion, or indeed the only abnormality found. And I meant **Tiller** , not Tillman. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391/20 "2011-01-21T16:07:47Z")
This story shows PRECSELY why I’m pro-life (and anti-abortion). Oh, wait. No, it doesn’t. To extrapolate anything from this scumbag’s actions to the actual abortion climate would be idiocy at its finest. There are obviously arguments on both sides of the abortion issue and we’ve hashed them out countless times here. But this guy’s actions are a real-life strawman; a rhetor imputing Dr. Scum’s actions to real actual abortion practice is simply dishonest. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-dr-gosnell-babykiller-alledged/568391.md?page=2)