# I pit easy Libertarian thinking **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376 "2011-06-22T03:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/1 "2011-06-22T03:02:05Z")
Eternalone, you get the scorn today: > [@Handicapping the 2012 GOP presidential nomination](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-2012-gop-presidential-nomination/571160/502): > > The 2nd amendment has the phrase “well regulated” in it. How you can say that there is not restrictions is beyond me. There should only be restrictions on those who have proven they cannot be trusted with firearms-violent criminals, for example. There should be no restrictions on law abiding citizens. “No restrictions” is not “well-regulated.” There are reasonable limits on category of weapon to avoid collateral damage. Your argument implies an unfamiliarity with weapons of war. > [@](#): > > It is well documented that societies that are well armed have lower crime rates. No it isn’t. There is no correlation. Please cite if you find a correlation, since you’re the one asserting an affirmative case. If there were a correlation, the line of causality would most likely run the other way. Law-abiding populations don’t have to have their guns taken away. Societies that breed lynch mobs & street gangs (OH, WAIT! THAT’S US!!!) often do. Switzerland isn’t civilized _because_ it’s armed. It might still be armed because it’s civilized. > [@](#): > > Take a look at Switzerland. Nazi Germany avoided invading there for a reason. Oh, great Lenin’s ghost, Oksana, if only the Ukrainians had resisted with firearms, the Nazis would have gone home! Wait, they did resist, & it still took years of blood to drive out the Nazis. You ignorant dimbulb. Yes, this is the stupid comment that inspired me to start a pit thread. But wait, I’m not done! > [@](#): > > The economic system we have NOW favors the wealthy. Look at the increase in the gap between rich and poor in the last 11 years!!! Paul wants to eliminate all the tax loopholes and subsidies (paid for by us) given to companies that are already hugely profitable. Most of that money goes to the company upper management, not to the non-management employee. Then he’s doing damage to his constituents. “Loopholes” are a dismissive word for deductions. As in not taxing monies used for something other than the enrichment of the owner of the business. “Closing loopholes,” was Reagan’s phrase, we did it thirty years ago, & the growth in income and wealth disparity is exactly due to that closing of loopholes. > [@](#): > > True capitalism has laws/regulations that promote competition and free trade while punishing fraud, breaking up monopolies and collusion (price fixing), and having sound enviornmental regulation. It has nothing in common with anarchy. Anarchy literally means no rules, no law, no authority. No one is advocating that. Great. I’m for those things. THAT’S WHY I’M A GREEN. THAT’S WHY I BELIEVE IN REDISTRIBUTION. AND THAT’S WHY I SUPPORT THE PIRATE PARTY. Hardline anti-regulation\* laissez-faire\* policies don’t promote competition, because they don’t cultivate new competitors. In the present intellectual property system, we can in fact see dominant industries in a sector control new R&D in that sector & subvert all new competitors. Look up “Monsanto” or “Microsoft.” If you think environmental regulation has any home in the present GOP alliance, come here so I can boot you in the head. Spare me. Don’t vote for someone based on what you wish he were saying, when it contradicts what we know he’ll actually do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/2 "2011-06-22T03:18:41Z")
> [@Handicapping the 2012 GOP presidential nomination](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-2012-gop-presidential-nomination/571160/502): > > It is well documented that societies that are well armed have lower crime rates. Take a look at Switzerland. Or Afghanistan! _Everyone_ knows how peaceful and low crime Afghanistan is! ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/3 "2011-06-22T03:22:42Z")
Any link to the original thread? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/4 "2011-06-22T03:29:35Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > Any link to the original thread? Click on the little tab by **Eternalone** ’s name at the top of the quote. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/5 "2011-06-22T03:47:21Z")
Thanks. Learn something new every day. Or at least once a week. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/6 "2011-06-22T04:19:50Z")
It’s about time someone on this board had the courage to criticize libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/7 "2011-06-22T04:27:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It’s about time someone on this board had the courage to criticize libertarianism. Your point being what? That once a stupid idea is criticized, further arguments in favor of that stupid idea should not be rebutted? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/8 "2011-06-22T04:29:27Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Your point being what? That once a stupid idea is criticized, further arguments in favor of that stupid idea should not be rebutted? Not really. I’ve been pretty critical of particular aspects of libertarianism quite often on these boards. I hardly seems like we can go a couple of weeks, however, without someone starting a new thread to make the same arguments over again. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/9 "2011-06-22T04:55:00Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Not really. > > I’ve been pretty critical of particular aspects of libertarianism quite often on these boards. I hardly seems like we can go a couple of weeks, however, without someone starting a new thread to make the same arguments over again. Well in all fairness **foolsguinea** started this in response to assertions made by **Eternalone** , my point being that silly ideas must be rebutted again and again as long as they continue to be forwarded. My fear is that if we throw up our hands these ideas may take root for lack of resistance. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/10 "2011-06-22T05:24:39Z")
Occam’s Razor=the simplest answer is always right. More guns equals less crime. Five words. Must be true. _Places hands over ears, rocks back and forth while singing Jesus Loves Me_ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/11 "2011-06-22T17:21:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Not really. > > I’ve been pretty critical of particular aspects of libertarianism quite often on these boards. I hardly seems like we can go a couple of weeks, however, without someone starting a new thread to make the same arguments over again. There are some libertarian ideas that make sense but they are not the ideas that make libertarianism different. The ideas that make libertarianism different from mainstream political and economic throught are the ones that deserve ridicule every time they are presented. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/12 "2011-06-22T18:09:30Z")
Such as . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/13 "2011-06-22T19:57:11Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Well in all fairness **foolsguinea** started this in response to assertions made by **Eternalone** , my point being that silly ideas must be rebutted again and again as long as they continue to be forwarded. My fear is that if we throw up our hands these ideas may take root for lack of resistance. I’m arguing for throwing up our hands. I just don’t see the point in broad, ideologically-based pittings like this. If you disagree with a particular philosophy or argument, then argue against it. For example, what was to stop the OP from rationally and logically refuting **Eternalone** ’s position in the original thread? Not one of the quotes in the OP couldn’t have been addressed there. Why did it require a Pit thread? If you can attack someone’s position only by dragging them to the Pit, it suggests that you might not have much substance in your own arguments. I’m not averse to playing in the Pit, nor to heaping abuse on people if the thread is already here and i feel that it’s warranted. But it seems to me that dragging an argument to the Pit simply because you hold a different political position is a rather pointless exercise. Just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/14 "2011-06-22T20:03:32Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Well in all fairness **foolsguinea** started this in response to assertions made by **Eternalone** , my point being that silly ideas must be rebutted again and again as long as they continue to be forwarded. My fear is that if we throw up our hands these ideas may take root for lack of resistance. I’m arguing for throwing up our hands. I just don’t see the point in broad, ideologically-based pittings like this. If you disagree with a particular philosophy or argument, then argue against it. For example, what was to stop the OP from rationally and logically refuting **Eternalone** ’s position in the original thread? Not one of the quotes in the OP couldn’t have been addressed there. Why did it require a Pit thread? If you can attack someone’s position only by dragging them to the Pit, it suggests that you might not have much substance in your own arguments. I’m not averse to playing in the Pit, nor to heaping abuse on people if the thread is already here and i feel that it’s warranted. But it seems to me that dragging an argument to the Pit simply because you hold a different political position is a rather pointless exercise. Just MHO. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/15 "2011-06-22T20:04:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m arguing for throwing up our hands. This, of course, should read “I’m NOT arguing for throwing up our hands.” Also, Mods, i don’t know how i posted a second identical post. Could you remove one, if you get a moment? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/16 "2011-06-22T21:15:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > This, of course, should read “I’m NOT arguing for throwing up our hands.” > > Also, Mods, i don’t know how i posted a second identical post. Could you remove one, if you get a moment? Point taken. I agree pitting is not the first line of defense. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/17 "2011-06-22T22:12:45Z")
I was trying not to hijack the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/18 "2011-06-22T22:29:14Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I was trying not to hijack the other thread. It seems I should have just kept my big mouth shut :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/19 "2011-06-25T04:24:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Such as . . . ? Well, I suppose it depends on the flavor of libertarianism you subscribe to but the notion that the government’s role should be limited to protecting property rights is pretty silly. Laissez faire capitalism has a history of pretty horrible results. Supply side economics is pretty demonstrably fundamentally flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/20 "2011-06-25T07:03:40Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > **I pit easy Libertarian thinking** Fortunately, most Libertarians find thinking anything but easy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376.md?page=2)