# I pit easy Libertarian thinking **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376 "2011-06-22T03:02:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/21 "2011-06-27T01:26:18Z")
yea…hmm…since when do criminals obey laws? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/22 "2011-06-27T02:10:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Fortunately, most Libertarians find thinking anything but easy. Right, because “if there’s something I think is a problem, then of course the government should fix it” (i.e., your view of the world) is so awe-inspiring in its nuanced and deep intellectual foundations. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/23 "2011-06-27T03:14:17Z")
If anyone isn’t familiar with Der Trihs’s “deep thinking” on libertarianism, he provides some nice examples in this thread: [A couple of questions about libertarianism - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=613956) ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/24 "2011-06-27T04:04:49Z")
Question for the libertarians: as I understand it, you are not advocating anarchy; you are still suggesting that we have laws, correct? How do we decide what is and isn’t legal in our society? Who gets to make the decision? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/25 "2011-06-27T12:35:52Z")
The same people would make that decision as do now. Libertarianism is just a set of guiding principles about how to make that decision. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/26 "2011-06-27T14:04:36Z")
And those guiding principles lead to results that deserve pitting. I can’t tell you how many people i run into who claim to be libertarians but never have the courage of their convictions. I rarely can get a libertarian to say that we should get rid of publicly funded education (except on anonymous chat boards) and yet it seems to be the inevitable result of libertarian principles. The only libertarian value that I seem to hear from libertarians is: lower taxes ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/27 "2011-06-27T14:18:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The only libertarian value that I seem to hear from libertarians is: lower taxes And really what they mean by this is: Lower taxes _for me_, and elimination of government services that\* I don’t \*use or _I don’t_ agree with. It’s a fundamentally selfish “fuck you, I have mine and I’m keeping it” philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/28 "2011-06-27T14:32:05Z")
It might help if you offered arguments that are actually on point, e.g.: > [@foolsguinea](#): > > There are reasonable limits on category of weapon to avoid collateral damage. The issue of “category of weapon” relates to the definition of “arms”, and has nothing to do with the “well-regulated” clause. > [@](#): > > If there were a correlation, the line of causality would most likely run the other way. Law-abiding populations don’t have to have their guns taken away. Exercise for the student: Apply this reasoning to explain the history of Jim Crow laws. Bonus points if you can avoid: 1)admitting that the argument is fallacious, 2)being called a racist, and 3)reaching conclusions that are, in fact, racist. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/29 "2011-06-27T15:50:18Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And really what they mean by this is: Lower taxes _for me_, and elimination of government services that\* I don’t \*use or _I don’t_ agree with. It’s a fundamentally selfish “fuck you, I have mine and I’m keeping it” philosophy. Nope. It’s about makig things better for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/30 "2011-06-27T16:30:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. It’s about makig things better for everyone. 4,890 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/31 "2011-06-27T16:31:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. It’s about makig things better for everyone. OK Comrade. If that’s what helps you sleep at night, good for you. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/32 "2011-06-27T16:50:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And really what they mean by this is: Lower taxes _for me_, and elimination of government services that\* I don’t \*use or _I don’t_ agree with. It’s a fundamentally selfish “fuck you, I have mine and I’m keeping it” philosophy. Hey, we’re making progress! Only a couple dozen posts before a mouthbreather came in to repeat things he read on a blog. _Koch Brothers! Pot! Greedy! Ayn Rand! I so smrter than you!_ ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/33 "2011-06-27T16:50:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The same people would make that decision as do now. Libertarianism is just a set of guiding principles about how to make that decision. And what are these principles? How are you creating and applying these privileges in a way that doesn’t systematically favor some groups over others? Because, as I understand it, that is your qualm with the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/34 "2011-06-27T17:29:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Hey, we’re making progress! Only a couple dozen posts before a mouthbreather came in to repeat things he read on a blog. > _Koch Brothers! Pot! Greedy! Ayn Rand! I so smrter than you!_ Sorry, no. Just stating the patently obvious. Thanks for the gratuitous insults though - I guess that’s the level of your discourse, so I’ll just pat you on the head. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/35 "2011-06-27T17:31:23Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > And what are these principles? How are you creating and applying these privileges in a way that doesn’t systematically favor some groups over others? Because, as I understand it, that is your qualm with the current system. What? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/36 "2011-06-27T20:17:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Just stating the patently obvious. No, it’s not obvious at all. It’s your blinkered prejudice that renders yourself incapable of grasping other people’s ideas. Do you, personally, know a lot of rich, greedy libertarians? The ones you do know from the SDMB came from normal working class backgrounds, and live normal middle-class lives (With, I suppose the exception of Rand Rover, who IIRC styles himself as some sort of plutocrat; then again, I don’t think he calls himself a libertarian). > [@](#): > > It’s a fundamentally selfish “fuck you, I have mine and I’m keeping it” philosophy. Did you come up with this on your own? From long thoughtful engagement with libertarians? You drew this conclusion after reading Locke, Smith, Bastiat, Hayek? No. It’s a lazy, witless ad hominem, learned from others, that you repeat with pavlovian reliability, not a whit different from “liberals hate freedom,” “conservatives are bigots,” “progressives want to kill babies” and other empty-headed sloganeering. You blurt out your assigned lines like baboon trained to do a trick, smile proudly at your genius, and then go back to playing with your feces. So yeah, fuck you too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/37 "2011-06-27T21:27:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. It’s about makig things better for everyone. No its not. At BEST it makes things better for most people at the cost of letting others slip through the cracks. In practice it preserves the priveleges of the few. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/38 "2011-06-27T22:05:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No its not. > > At BEST it makes things better for most people at the cost of letting others slip through the cracks. > > In practice it preserves the priveleges of the few. And how does that compare to the not-libertarian system? How many people currently slip through the cracks, and how many MORE would slip through if libertarians got their way? And why the assumption that libertarians have no sense of charity? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/39 "2011-06-27T22:06:43Z")
> [@furt](#): > > So yeah, fuck you too. No, fuck you! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376/40 "2011-06-27T23:39:01Z")
> [@furt](#): > > So yeah, fuck you too. > [@emacknight](#): > > No, fuck you! [Moderating] Actually, fuck neither of you. Both of these posts are in violation of the [Pit’s language rules.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Please avoid using prohibited language against other posters. No warnings issued. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-easy-libertarian-thinking/586376.md?page=3)