# I pit five members of the Black Jack, Missouri city council **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143 "2006-05-17T18:31:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/1 "2006-05-17T18:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Olivia Shelltrack and Fondrey Loving were denied an occupancy permit after moving into a home in this St. Louis suburb because they have three children and are not married. > > The town’s planning and zoning commission proposed a change in the law, but the measure was rejected Tuesday by the city council in a 5-3 vote. [Link](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060517/ap_on_re_us/unmarried_couples) What a bunch of backwards hicks. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/2 "2006-05-17T18:37:31Z")
Yeah, that’s definitely bullshit, but I just wanted to say that Olivia Shelltrack and Fondrey Loving are two of the most interesting, loveliest names that I have come across in a while. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/3 "2006-05-17T18:43:12Z")
Great link. Terrible pitting. Try to put some oopmh into it: “Once again the ignorant rubes of the fucking Bible Belt seek to impose their hateful, anachronistic beliefs on anyone who doesn’t meet their narrow definition of ‘family.’ Come out of the bomb shelter and grow out that crew cut. It’s the 21st Century. It’s stories like this that remind me why Jack Chick sells so many goddamn tracts.” ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/4 "2006-05-17T18:44:30Z")
I gotta say, any town that has an ordinance which “prohibits more than three people from living together unless they are related by ‘blood, marriage or adoption,’” ain’t any place I wanna live anyway. What the hell? An “occupancy permit?” Man, that’s just . . . strange. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/5 "2006-05-17T18:48:50Z")
Isn’t this the part where, due to the offenderati out there, that you are only referring to specific > [@OneCentStamp](#): > > “Once again the ignorant rubes of the fucking Bible Belt seek to impose their hateful, anachronistic beliefs on anyone who doesn’t meet their narrow definition of ‘family.’ Come out of the bomb shelter and grow out that crew cut. It’s the 21st Century. It’s stories like this that remind me why Jack Chick sells so many goddamn tracts.” and not all > [@OneCentStamp](#): > > “Once again the ignorant rubes of the fucking Bible Belt seek to impose their hateful, anachronistic beliefs on anyone who doesn’t meet their narrow definition of ‘family.’ Come out of the bomb shelter and grow out that crew cut. It’s the 21st Century. It’s stories like this that remind me why Jack Chick sells so many goddamn tracts.” ? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/6 "2006-05-17T18:50:19Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I gotta say, any town that has an ordinance which “prohibits more than three people from living together unless they are related by ‘blood, marriage or adoption,’” ain’t any place I wanna live anyway. > > What the hell? An “occupancy permit?” Man, that’s just . . . strange. Well, the rule is probably in place more to prevent unofficial flophouses from cropping up rather than immorality. Those types of rules really aren’t that uncommon. It’s just odd seeing them bothering to enforce it in thise case. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/7 "2006-05-17T18:55:58Z")
Why would Black Jack, Missouri need an eight-person council? To reflect the wide diversity of their population?\* To handle the huge paperwork involved with their traffic light? More than one in every thousand people is on the council! What do they do, take turns? \*6,792, I checked. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/8 "2006-05-17T19:02:58Z")
And a whopping 2.65 square miles of jurisdiction. That just about 200 acres/council member. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/9 "2006-05-17T19:14:49Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What a bunch of backwards hicks. > [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > To handle the huge paperwork involved with their traffic light? I just wanted to point out that Black Jack is not a little hick town. It’s a very urbanized suburb that abuts the area with the highest crime in the state. It’s also not a very wealthy area at all. I’m not going to hazard an attempt at defending them, but try to steer clear of stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/10 "2006-05-17T19:29:43Z")
Blackjack is just one of the 90+ municipalities within St. Louis County. St. Louis County is a seperate entity from St. Louis. Muni’s that are unincorporated have no councils nor any other governance and rely on St. Louis County for law enforcement and public services. Those are the sane ones. Little podunk munis like Black Jack have councils typically because they want to fine the shit out of anybody who ventures into their little hell-hole and doesn’t drive perfect. (26 mph in a 25 mph zone is an offence-I know from experience) In the south part of the I learned to stay away from Bella Villa, St. George, and Shrewsbury amoung others. This just happens to be a special case where they’ve found a way to legislate morality too. ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/11 "2006-05-17T19:40:05Z")
Lawrence has (or had, it was hotly debated, and I can’t remember if it was repealed or not) an occupancy rule to try and make neighborhoods around the campus less of a student ghetto by enforcing blood or marriage relations among roommates. We’re a fairly liberal little city, too. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/12 "2006-05-17T19:42:33Z")
I had mixed feelings about this [the first time it was Pitted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364799&highlight=Shelltrack) and I still have mixed feelings. One the one hand, they should be able to live wherever they want. On the other hand, they have the ability to thwart the law by getting married. In a country where same-sex couples can’t get married in 49 of 50 states I have a hard time working up a lot of sympathy for a mixed-sex couple who has the right to marry and chooses not to, then complains about the consequences of their choice. Flame away… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/13 "2006-05-17T19:43:03Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Isn’t this the part where, due to the offenderati out there, that you are only referring to specific > > and not all > > ? > > -Joe I thought his post said all it needed to say. He was slamming the “ignorant rubes of the fucking Bible Belt.” If you live in the Bible Belt, and you’re not an ignorant rube, the criticism doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/14 "2006-05-17T19:48:29Z")
I thought $.01 was trying to give the OP a suggestion for how he’d write the OP. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/15 "2006-05-17T19:51:27Z")
Yeah, I thought the link was interesting (and irritating). I just like it when Pit threads start out with a bit of a diatribe. If the OP isn’t hopping mad about whatever he or she is pitting, it’s hard for me to get all worked up about it. And my suggested rant was only half-serious anyway; if I’d discovered this news story on my own I don’t even think I would have pitted it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/16 "2006-05-17T19:55:43Z")
By the way, if anyone’s interested, the town’s website has a [statement](http://www.cityofblackjack.com/default.asp?sectionID=42&MENUID=738&pageID=10116&lMnu=) released yesterday by the mayor on this issue. Some relevant sections include: > [@](#): > > The purpose of these occupancy permit laws generally is to: > > - avoid overcrowding by non-related parties, > - assure the lifelong maintenance of the cities housing stock, > - prevent new buyers from being obligated to repair residences that were not kept up to code, > - preserve the character of the neighborhoods and the City > - and to protect the general safety and welfare of the City’s residents. > > \ > > Contrary to much media hype and public comment, the current definition of “family” in the City of Black Jack Code does not prevent an unmarried couple from living in the City. Under the City’s Housing and Zoning Codes, each of the following three separate groups of people constitute a “family” when living together as a single non-profit housekeeping unit in a dwelling unit: > > a. An individual; or > > b. Two (2) or more persons related by blood, marriage or adoption; or > > c. A group of not more than three (3) persons who need not be related by blood, marriage or adoption. > > \ > > As Mayor, I am required by state law to uphold the laws of the City of Black Jack. Tomorrow, we will follow our normal administrative process and request compliance by any individuals that are living in the City who are not in compliance with the Code. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/17 "2006-05-17T20:06:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I had mixed feelings about this [the first time it was Pitted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364799&highlight=Shelltrack) and I still have mixed feelings. One the one hand, they should be able to live wherever they want. On the other hand, they have the ability to thwart the law by getting married. They can also thwart the law by Mr. Loving oficially adopting the oldest kid. ---
**Author:** ![velvetjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5f9b8f/32.png) [@velvetjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velvetjones)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/18 "2006-05-17T20:08:19Z")
So what you’re saying here is that they just need to get rid of two of those kids and they won’t be breaking any laws… Seems pretty easy to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/19 "2006-05-17T20:44:54Z")
If they sue would it be _Loving v. Missouri_? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/20 "2006-05-17T20:50:53Z")
> [@velvetjones](#): > > So what you’re saying here is that they just need to get rid of two of those kids and they won’t be breaking any laws… Or the mother can keep the kids and dump the boyfriend. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143.md?page=2)