# I pit five members of the Black Jack, Missouri city council **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143 "2006-05-17T18:31:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/21 "2006-05-17T23:04:54Z")
So if they were brother and sister everything would work out just fine… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/22 "2006-05-17T23:44:56Z")
Wait, those are their biological kids, right? So the kids are related to each other and their parents by blood. So the only ones not related by “blood, marriage, or adoption” are the parents themselves. So how does any of this apply? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/23 "2006-05-18T00:19:19Z")
I’m still confused about the “occupancy permit.” Does this apply to renters or to homebuyers? If I were an unmarried lady with two kids and a live in boyfriend, do I need town council approval to reside within the city limits? What if a landlord/homeseller didn’t know about the law and accidentally rented/sold the house to “violaters?” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/24 "2006-05-18T00:25:26Z")
[QUOTE=velvetjones] So what you’re saying here is that they just need to get rid of two of those kids and they won’t be breaking any laws… Seems pretty easy to me. [/QUOTE] [Scrooge]Are there no work houses?[/Scrooge] It all seems pretty lame to me. Two people with their children. Yup, good old family values strikes again. No better way to preserve a family, than to force them out. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/25 "2006-05-18T00:33:22Z")
We moved to the STL area from the east coast 17 years ago and were _shocked, shocked_ by the crazy covenants of some of the STL suburban communities. One case sticks in my mind: A couple moved into the town of Ladue (really expensive, sometimes called La-La-Doo). The day they moved in the “Welcome Wagon” or in this case the police, showed up at their door. The couple were informed that they could not occupy the residence because they were not married, a violation of one of the goofy local laws. Well, it turns out they were married but, since they were both MD’s who had recently signed up to work at a local hospital, the wife had chosen to keep her maiden name. Bottom line, the married docs were allowed to live together, but the police and town admitted no wrong. In their opinion (paraphrasing here:) “The problem was all her fault for being so uppity that she didn’t take her husband’s name.” :smack: _STL: Ya gotta live here to believe it. If you move away, we’ll build a monument to ya._ :wally ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/26 "2006-05-18T00:39:59Z")
Hmmmmm. I was raised to believe we all lived in a FREE country. Just when did it change, or were my parents and teachers just fucking with my head?? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/27 "2006-05-18T00:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=SteveG1] Hmmmmm. I was raised to believe we all lived in a FREE country. Just when did it change, or were my parents and teachers just fucking with my head?? [/QUOTE] Sorry to break it to you but it was all just empty rhetoric. This country probably wouldn’t even make the top ten list of most free countries. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/28 "2006-05-18T01:07:28Z")
[QUOTE=asterion] Wait, those are their biological kids, right? So the kids are related to each other and their parents by blood. So the only ones not related by “blood, marriage, or adoption” are the parents themselves. So how does any of this apply? [/QUOTE] The oldest kid is the product of a previous relationship and not related to Mr. Loving, which is why adopting him would solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/29 "2006-05-18T01:10:25Z")
If I’m understanding it correctly, the mother is related by blood to all three children and the father is related to only two of the children by blood. The mother and father are unrelated by marriage and the father and the oldest child are unrelated by blood or adoption. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/30 "2006-05-18T01:33:31Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] If I’m understanding it correctly, the mother is related by blood to all three children and the father is related to only two of the children by blood. The mother and father are unrelated by marriage and the father and the oldest child are unrelated by blood or adoption. [/QUOTE] And the question is “Who the fuck cares?!” Why is the town looking into this obscure minutia? Don’t they have anything better to do? Like maybe arresting jay-walkers or street-spitters or something? These people are home-owners who have what seems to be a stable little family thing going on. They are not criminals. Seemingly they’re only law-breaking activity is “oh my dog they’re not married!!!” Sorry, this whole story has pissed me off since day one. And it is not atypical of the STL area. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/31 "2006-05-18T01:49:03Z")
Oh, and just to be clear, in the previous post I’m not railing against Otto, but against the PTB of BlackJack. And in defense of the STL area; the drivers are generally very polite and let you merge if you use your turn-signal. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/32 "2006-05-18T02:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Why would Black Jack, Missouri need an eight-person council? To reflect the wide diversity of their population?\* To handle the huge paperwork involved with their traffic light? More than one in every thousand people is on the council! What do they do, take turns? \*6,792, I checked. [/QUOTE] When my father was on the Elgin, IL city council in the 1970s, he was one of six members that represented a town of 70,000, so yes, I think that Black Jack, MO is a bit over-represented at the municipal level. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/33 "2006-05-18T03:09:09Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] The oldest kid is the product of a previous relationship and not related to Mr. Loving, which is why adopting him would solve the problem. [/QUOTE] Not up on my adoption rules, but wouldn’t the biological father have to agree to the adoption? If he’s still around of course. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/34 "2006-05-18T03:10:05Z")
Has anyone determined the ideal number of representatives per capita on a council? Why nitpick if people are interested and involved in community politics? I don’t care what the individual community determines is the best ratio of representation. The point is that this law is hideous and it doesn’t matter whether it’s in Missouri or Idaho or Florida. For the record, the citizens themselves aren’t always hicks. All it takes it one or two councilors with wild hairs up their butts and a few others that are cowards nearing reelection and they’ve got themselves a stoopid law on the books. I am so sick of “snoopy” laws. Someone needs to pass a law that fines any council person that suggests a law that is _none of their damned business!_ IFSV (I FEEL SEMI-VIOLENT) ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/35 "2006-05-18T04:26:18Z")
Are occupancy permits really that uncommon elsewhere in the U.S.? My wife and I have had to get them in both cities in St. Louis County we’ve lived in (Webster Groves and Brentwood). I think the “spirit” of the Black Jack law, so to speak, is that somehow they can prevent crack houses from forming if they can kick large groups of unrelated people out of houses without having to actually find drugs or contraband. Now of course, any sane, rational city council (no matter how many members it has) would look at the situation of a loving, bi-racial family and use common sense to let them stay, repealing the law. But St. Louis County municipal governments are little fiefdoms for their leaders. The story in the [St. Louis Post-Dispatch](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stcharles/story/29909F7A05AC1802862571710019CA0F?OpenDocument) had a few more details, and a lovely quote from a withered old cunt, er, resident of the city: > [@](#): > > Black Jack resident Rose Curtis, 65, said she thought the City Council made the right decision. > > “As a woman, I’m not going to let a man have babies by me and not marry me,” Curtis said. “I think it was a fair decision. It’s cut and dried.” Thank you for your opinion, Ms. Curtis. Now go suck a pickle and die. ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/36 "2006-05-18T04:43:34Z")
[Here are some more details on these laws in general in St. Louis County.](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/srlinks.nsf/story/F9FCE3731F7C4BD38625712300801F1B?OpenDocument) Also, enjoy the comments from local yokels in the Talk of the Day. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/37 "2006-05-18T05:05:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Black Jack resident Rose Curtis, **65** , said she thought the City Council made the right decision. > > “As a woman, I’m not going to let a man have babies by me and not marry me,” Curtis said. She’s probably one of those who still haven’t forgiven Ingrid Bergman. I’m dearly hoping that anyone having babies by her is no longer an issue. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/38 "2006-05-18T15:11:38Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] Sorry to break it to you but it was all just empty rhetoric. This country probably wouldn’t even make the top ten list of most free countries… [/QUOTE] …in the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/39 "2006-05-18T16:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=SanibelMan] Are occupancy permits really that uncommon elsewhere in the U.S.? My wife and I have had to get them in both cities in St. Louis County we’ve lived in (Webster Groves and Brentwood). [/QUOTE] This story is the first I’ve heard of any such thing. SisterCoyote Resident of CA, then NV ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143/40 "2006-05-18T17:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] By the way, if anyone’s interested, the town’s website has a [statement](http://www.cityofblackjack.com/default.asp?sectionID=42&MENUID=738&pageID=10116&lMnu=) released yesterday by the mayor on this issue. Some relevant sections include: > [@](#): > > The purpose of these occupancy permit laws generally is to: > > - avoid overcrowding by non-related parties, [/QUOTE] Soooo… overcrowding by related parties is ok? In Spain, a building (or separate part thereof, like each given apartment within an apartment building) gets an occupancy permit saying whether it can be used as an office, industrial location, housing, etc. If housing, by how many people; if industry, which kinds (you can’t have a fireworks factory in the middle of town - if there is a fireworks factory already there, you can’t build housing around it). Nothing about whether 4-generation, old-fashiones gipsy families are OK but 4 students are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-five-members-of-the-black-jack-missouri-city-council/357143.md?page=3)