# I pit Fox News' Andrew Napolitano for his really stupid statement on the Civil War and slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 25, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251 "2014-02-25T20:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/161 "2014-03-16T03:57:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > As I recall, there was even an effort to create colonies of former slaves. They were supposed to get them well set-up with schools and hospitals. Shockingly, it turns out that some private concern hired to do the job of government took the money and did the least they could possibly get away with. They dumped the former slaves on an island with some hatchets and told them to fend for themselves. Lincoln gave up this plan after that. No he didn’t. As late as August 1964 he has been found to be pursuing colonization. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/162 "2014-03-16T04:07:30Z")
I’ll just add that the court historians aka state apologists aka demagogue idolaters were factually incorrect in response to one of Judge “not an historian” Napolitano’s comments. Escaped slaves were indeed hunted, captured, and shamefully returned to their state supported “owners” during the Civil War. You would think that if you were a supposed Lincoln expert, you would know that or at least act less cavalierly in your shallow intellectual impotence. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/163 "2014-03-16T04:10:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No he didn’t. As late as August 1964 he has been found to be pursuing colonization. I assume you meant 1864. If so, your claim is misleading. Cite: Michael Vorenberg, Associate Professor of History at Brown University [http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0014.204/--abraham-lincoln-and-the-politics-of-black-colonization?rgn=main;view=fulltext](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0014.204/--abraham-lincoln-and-the-politics-of-black-colonization?rgn=main;view=fulltext) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/164 "2014-03-16T04:20:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’ll just add that the court historians aka state apologists aka demagogue idolaters were factually incorrect in response to one of Judge “not an historian” Napolitano’s comments. Escaped slaves were indeed hunted, captured, and shamefully returned to their state supported “owners” during the Civil War. You would think that if you were a supposed Lincoln expert, you would know that or at least act less cavalierly in your shallow intellectual impotence. Cite. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/165 "2014-03-16T04:31:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Cite. I meant to add someone who would be considered by academics to be more reliable than Eric Foner. That certainly wasn’t true of slaves who escaped from the Confederacy, though it might have been true of the border states though even then I’m not sure how enforced it was. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/166 "2014-03-16T07:51:54Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’ll just add that the court historians aka state apologists aka demagogue idolaters were factually incorrect in response to one of Judge “not an historian” Napolitano’s comments. Escaped slaves were indeed hunted, captured, and shamefully returned to their state supported “owners” during the Civil War. You would think that if you were a supposed Lincoln expert, you would know that or at least act less cavalierly in your shallow intellectual impotence. You’re obviously trying to make the case that slavery only existed because of the evil state. Because in Libertopia, there’d be no slavery. Which is nonsense, of course. The state didn’t require people to own slaves and it didn’t require people to hunt for fugitive slaves. These were things people chose to do as private citizens without any direction from the state. All the state did was simply stand back and allow people to do these things. Which is what Libertarians say the state should be doing - just staying out of people’s business even if that business involves owning slaves. Now of course Libertarians will say _“No, that’s not what we meant. We’re opposed to slavery.”_ Well, of course you are. Everyone is opposed to slavery now. Libertarianism is nothing special on that. The difference is most systems can actually do something about it. They not only have ideals, they put those ideals into effect. The only way Libertarians can put an ideal like opposing slavery into effect is by putting aside their Libertarian principles and using some other more effective principles. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/167 "2014-03-16T14:32:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I meant to add someone who would be considered by academics to be more reliable than Eric Foner. > > That certainly wasn’t true of slaves who escaped from the Confederacy, though it might have been true of the border states though even then I’m not sure how enforced it was. You’re not sure because you are a hardened hagiographic hack hound who pretends he has some kind of establishment credentials. You’re a clown, son. The state grows and the elite get rich off off the people while you run around peddling “proper” propaganda and getting shit on by the people you fellate. Are you too dimwitted to recognize the role of court historians? They have bought into the ideology of state dominated life. If they rock the boat they don’t get paid. So they provide the state with intellectual credibility to people who are concerned with being part of the in-crowd like yourself. But you aren’t in the in-crowd. You spend your time on a message board, not affecting policy, not rubbing shoulders with the elite, not doing anything of any consequence in the world. On the other hand, you have a blue-collar motherfucker like me arming myself with information against people trying to plunder the population, and their suckered shills such as yourself. I do this shit on my lunch break. I eat your lunch while I’m taking a shit. > **[The Slave Catchers](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_slave_catchers.html?id=LgR3AAAAMAAJ)** > > In this thoroughly researched documentation of a historically controversial issue, the author considers the background, passage, and constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Law. The author's relation of public opinion and the executive policy... > [@](#): > > In the meantime [1862], the Fugitive Slave Law remained in force and was \*\*executed by the federal marshals \*\*in the border states… > In October, 1861, the Louisville Courier was pleased to report that a resident of Louisville had recovered his fugitive slave from the **state of Indiana by due process of law**. The **federal marshal had acted promptly** , and the fugitive slave tribunal performed efficiently in remanding the slave to his owner. > In May, 1862, the \*\*Superior Court of the District of Columbia \*\*ruled that the Fugitive Slave Law was as applicable to the D.C. as it was to any of the states. The docket of the court for 1862 listed the claims of 28 different slave owners for 101 runaway slaves. In the two months following the court’s decision, 26 fugitive slaves were returned to their owners from the **fugitive slave tribunal in the nation’s capital**. As late as June, 1863, six months after the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect, the fugitive slaves were still being returned to their masters in the loyal states. On June 12, for example, 3 women and 4 children were arrested as fugitive slaves and taken before **United States Commissioner Walter S. Coxe,** in Washington. After a hearing they were remanded to the claimant from Prince George County, Maryland, and on June 18, Commissioner Coxe remanded 2 fugitive slaves to claimants from the same county in Maryland. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re obviously trying to make the case that slavery only existed because of the evil state. Because in Libertopia, there’d be no slavery. > > Which is nonsense, of course. The state didn’t require people to own slaves and it didn’t require people to hunt for fugitive slaves. The bolding above is by me for your benefit. > [@](#): > > These were things people chose to do as private citizens without any direction from the state. All the state did was simply stand back and allow people to do these things. Absurd. Slave and master are political terms recognized by the state as legal categories. > [@](#): > > Which is what Libertarians say the state should be doing - just staying out of people’s business even if that business involves owning slaves. Do you know you’re full of shit or are you legitimately this fucking stupid. Libertarianism is the non-aggression principle, plain and simple. Slavery would be the the highest violation of this principle besides murder. > [@](#): > > Now of course Libertarians will say _“No, that’s not what we meant. We’re opposed to slavery.”_ Well, of course you are. Everyone is opposed to slavery now. Lysander Spooner was one of the most vocal opponents of slavery in the United States. > [@](#): > > Libertarianism is nothing special on that. The difference is most systems can actually do something about it. They not only have ideals, they put those ideals into effect. The only way Libertarians can put an ideal like opposing slavery into effect is by putting aside their Libertarian principles and using some other more effective principles. Actually using force against slave owners would be completely consistent with the only libertarian principle of non-aggression except in cases self-defense. You are either a bad liar or you’re talking out of your asshole and do not understand libertarianism. maybe both. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/168 "2014-03-16T14:54:05Z")
I have to say I’m laughing at the use of the term “court historian”. Anyway Will, I’m sorry your so butthurt over the way the South got spanked during the Civil War. They lost, get over it. Beyond that, I’m laughing at the idea of someone who thinks you could have some sort of libertopia actually work or that libertarians are somehow more “blue collar” than the rest of us. Dude, it’s a kooky fringe political group that most people laugh at. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/169 "2014-03-16T15:07:31Z")
There’s nothing quite like being called a clown by someone who uses “War of Northern Aggression” unironically, is there? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/170 "2014-03-16T15:16:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I assume you meant 1864. If so, your claim is misleading. Cite: Michael Vorenberg, Associate Professor of History at Brown University [http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0014.204/--abraham-lincoln-and-the-politics-of-black-colonization?rgn=main;view=fulltext](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0014.204/--abraham-lincoln-and-the-politics-of-black-colonization?rgn=main;view=fulltext) Typical of Lincoln scribes, he takes excessive license with his interpretations of Lincoln’s actions without backing it up. He likes a good yarn, basically. EIther way he doesn’t address these items: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html) > [@](#): > > Yet as late as that autumn, a letter sent to the president by his attorney-general showed he was still actively exploring whether the policy could be implemented, Mr Page said. > > “It says ‘further to your question, yes, I think you can still pursue this policy of colonisation even though the money has been taken away’,” he said. > [@](#): > > They found an order from Mr Lincoln in June 1863 authorising a British colonial agent, John Hodge, to recruit freed slaves to be sent to colonies in what are now the countries of Guyana and Belize. > > “Hodge reported back to a British minister that Lincoln said it was his ‘honest desire’ that this emigration went ahead,” said Mr Page, a historian at Oxford University. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/171 "2014-03-16T15:20:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to say I’m laughing at the use of the term “court historian”. > > Anyway Will, I’m sorry your so butthurt over the way the South got spanked during the Civil War. They lost, get over it. > > Beyond that, I’m laughing at the idea of someone who thinks you could have some sort of libertopia actually work or that libertarians are somehow more “blue collar” than the rest of us. > > Dude, it’s a kooky fringe political group that most people laugh at. You pretend to be some kind of scholar. You’re a clown. You post with your nose in the air, but you wear shabby clothing. A clown defined. You vicariously live through victories in violent wars. Probably has something to do with your culture. Power obsessed, ultra-masculine barbarism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/172 "2014-03-16T15:48:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You pretend to be some kind of scholar. I do? When did I ever say anything like that? I merely asked if you had a cite more reliable than Eric Foner. The best you could do was to say that in order to keep the border states from bolting Lincoln did, at times, enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. No shit, he always made it clear his goal was preservation of the union and ultimately that led to the freeing of all the slaves in both the North and the South. > [@](#): > > You post with your nose in the air, but you wear shabby clothing. Actually I wear nice clothing and I certainly don’t post with my nose in the air, though I’ll confess to laughing at times when responding to you. > [@](#): > > You vicariously live through victories in violent wars Huh? What are you talking about. I’m generally not even very interested in wars. > [@](#): > > Probably has something to do with your culture. Power obsessed, ultra-masculine barbarism. Huh? Is that supposed to be some racist shot at me for being an Iranian? If so, perhaps you could provide some sort of explanation because I don’t get it. Beyond that, if you have the time and would like to read about a culture obsessed with martial tradition, tradition and ancient concepts of honor and shame, and far more prone to violence then you should read a fascinating book called _Honor and Violence in the Old South_ by Bertram Wyatt Brown. He also wrote, _Southern Honor: Ethics and Behavior in the Old South_, which I haven’t read by I’ve heard is fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/173 "2014-03-16T15:49:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Actually using force against slave owners would be completely consistent with the only libertarian principle of non-aggression except in cases self-defense. You are either a bad liar or you’re talking out of your asshole and do not understand libertarianism. maybe both. I obviously understand libertarianism better than you. I understand it well enough to see that, as you just noted, it only starts working when it stops being libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/174 "2014-03-16T15:49:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You pretend to be some kind of scholar. You’re a clown. You post with your nose in the air, but you wear shabby clothing. A clown defined. > > You vicariously live through victories in violent wars. Probably has something to do with your culture. Power obsessed, ultra-masculine barbarism. As opposed to an apologist for one of the most evil and morally bankrupt geopolitical entities in world history? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/175 "2014-03-16T16:04:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s nothing quite like being called a clown by someone who uses “War of Northern Aggression” unironically, is there? I hadn’t thought of it that way. I was tempted to point out that historically clowns or court jesters were the people allowed and often encouraged to mock the King so his comment could be seen as a compliment but I doubted he’d appreciate the comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/176 "2014-03-16T16:43:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s nothing quite like being called a clown by someone who uses “War of Northern Aggression” unironically, is there? Indeed. I thought I’d just drop this here: > [@American Civil War/When/how would the south have abolished slavery without it](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/american-civil-war-when-how-would-the-south-have-abolished-slavery-without-it/683359/114): > > The North started the war, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251/177 "2014-03-16T17:01:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s nothing quite like being called a clown by someone who uses “War of Northern Aggression” unironically, is there? I use “Failed War to Preserve Slavery” with minimal irony, does that count for anything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fox-news-andrew-napolitano-for-his-really-stupid-statement-on-the-civil-war-and-slavery/682251.md?page=8)