# I pit fundamentalists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184 "2004-06-13T22:03:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/21 "2004-06-14T04:08:43Z")
Well, they’re really more like someone reading “The Color Purple” and saying it’s about colors and prisms, and some black people. They take the book, make their own self serving interpretations, and THEN they ruin everyone’s time by insisting that their interpretation is the only true one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/22 "2004-06-14T05:19:00Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > It’s relatively common to recognize a continuum of atheistic beliefs (“soft” atheism and “hard” atheism"). [Wikipedia has a good article on it.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist#Definition_and_scope) Strictly speaking, atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of a belief. Strong atheism is a belief that there is no god, but this is a minority view. Beyond this, I have never noticed any fundamental atheists beliefs about anything, some of us are Republicans! :eek: Including me up until a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/23 "2004-06-14T07:25:03Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Well… There are a hell of a lot more “fundementalist” christians and muslims than there are athiests, so Phhhhhhtttt. 😛 Yeah, but in the last century, the most fundamentalist Christian society was the United States of America, the most fundamentalist atheist societies were the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the People’s Republic of China. So there! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/24 "2004-06-14T10:50:50Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yeah, but in the last century, the most fundamentalist Christian society was the United States of America, the most fundamentalist atheist societies were the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the People’s Republic of China. > > So there! 😃 Not so. The so-called atheism of the USSR and the PRC was no more than anti-Christian suppression. One has only to examine the cults of personality surrounding Lenin, Stalin, and Mao to see that the Chinese and Soviet governments were far from atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/25 "2004-06-14T11:35:52Z")
The thing that sometimes makes fundamentalists tend to be militant assholes is the fact that they unthinkingly believe in a supernatural being whose rules and pronouncements trump those of society and the law, and frequently human decency and common sense as well. Atheism declares there is no such supernatural being, therefore they are not prone to the same kind of behavior. So your analogy does not wash. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/26 "2004-06-14T13:24:46Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Not really. > > Let’s look at one of the definitions: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) > > > > A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. > > I think characterizing an an intolerant atheist who refuses to acknowledge even the possibility that a deity of some kind exists as “fundamentalist” is perfectly fine by the above definition. I mean, you (indefinite sense, not necessarily **Gobear** ) have a rigid adherence to a set of fundamental beliefs (i.e., there is no God) and intolerance of other views. I could see how a reasonable person could disagree, though. You are ignoring part of the definition “return to fundamental principles” which does not exist in the so-called “fundamentalist atheists”. **gobear** is right. ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/27 "2004-06-14T13:27:25Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > He is an internet user, incapable of offering any original insight or even of inventing amusing analogies. Are you a secular libbrel or something? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/28 "2004-06-14T13:44:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Atheism is just a lack of belief in deities. There’s no such thing as a liberal atheist or a moderate atheist or a fundamentalist atheist. Then why make the distinction between hard and soft atheists? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/29 "2004-06-14T13:58:42Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Not so. The so-called atheism of the USSR and the PRC was no more than anti-Christian suppression. One has only to examine the cults of personality surrounding Lenin, Stalin, and Mao to see that the Chinese and Soviet governments were far from atheist. true. The governments were pro-christian and pro-atheist, but the population may have had differing opinions on that; witness the killing of christians in those countries and marginilization of ahteists in ours. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/30 "2004-06-14T14:02:23Z")
Let’s draw the line between smart atheists and dumb atheists. Dumb atheists say things like “We could never be as jerkish and intolerant as Chritians. Our lack of faith automatically gives us a pass.” Smart atheists know better. Of _course_ atheist fundamentalism can exist. What about the guy who insists that there is no god without ever truly considering the question, without ever even trying to take a believer seriously, and who goes through life with his fingers in his ears singing “La la la, there’s no god, I can’t hear you!” Or the guy who actively wants to suppress prayer not only in schools but in homes. They’re both out there (though I admit to knowing plenty of the former an almost none of the latter). The smart atheist realizes these possibilities and tries to avoid the pitfalls. The dumb atheist becomes that hich he despises most. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/31 "2004-06-14T14:04:29Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Let’s draw the line between smart atheists and dumb atheists. > > Dumb atheists say things like “We could never be as jerkish and intolerant as Chritians. Our lack of faith automatically gives us a pass.” > > Smart atheists know better. > > Of _course_ atheist fundamentalism can exist. What about the guy who insists that there is no god without ever truly considering the question, without ever even trying to take a believer seriously, and who goes through life with his fingers in his ears singing “La la la, there’s no god, I can’t hear you!” Or the guy who actively wants to suppress prayer not only in schools but in homes. They’re both out there (though I admit to knowing plenty of the former an almost none of the latter). > > The smart atheist realizes these possibilities and tries to avoid the pitfalls. The dumb atheist becomes that hich he despises most. And the dumbest of atheists submit posts with buttloads of misspellings. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/32 "2004-06-14T14:15:01Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Then why make the distinction between hard and soft atheists? “Soft atheists” are agnostics. Athiesm is binary-either you don’t believe in deity or you admit some possiblity of deity, which isn’t even close to atheism. > [@](#): > > Of course atheist fundamentalism can exist. What about the guy who insists that there is no god without ever truly considering the question, without ever even trying to take a believer seriously, and who goes through life with his fingers in his ears singing “La la la, there’s no god, I can’t hear you!” Or the guy who actively wants to suppress prayer not only in schools but in homes. They’re both out there (though I admit to knowing plenty of the former an almost none of the latter). As I’ve already said, that _intolerance_, not fundamentalism. There can’t be any such thing as atheist fundamentalism because it’s not a faith that has any fundamrntal doctrine. It’s an absence of faith. But yes, your point that atheists must not be as intolerant as theists is well-taken. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/33 "2004-06-14T14:25:11Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > “Soft atheists” are agnostics. Athiesm is binary-either you don’t believe in deity or you admit some possiblity of deity, which isn’t even close to atheism. Refusing to admit that it’s possible for a deity to exist is equivalent to stating that it’s impossible for a deity to exist. Many people would consider this to be a very different position then simply not believing in deity. Disbelief is different from denial. Contrary to what you’ve asserted, _both_ positions are commonly considered atheist. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/34 "2004-06-14T14:26:22Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > As I’ve already said, that _intolerance_, not fundamentalism. There can’t be any such thing as atheist fundamentalism because it’s not a faith that has any fundamrntal doctrine. It’s an absence of faith. Well, tomato, tomahto. I get your point, and agree, but realize that we shouldn’t get all bent and confused over terminology. > [@gobear](#): > > “Soft atheists” are agnostics. Athiesm is binary-either you don’t believe in deity or you admit some possiblity of deity, which isn’t even close to atheism. I don’t think it’s quite that simple. There’s a difference between “knowing” that there is no diety and thinking (IMO, rightly so) that the existance of a diety is highly unlikely. The later is what one might call a semi-gelatinous atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/35 "2004-06-14T14:34:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > And the dumbest of atheists submit posts with buttloads of misspellings. > [@tdn](#): > > There’s a difference between “knowing” that there is no diety and thinking (IMO, rightly so) that the existance of a diety is highly unlikely. So, if you worship at the low-carb altar, is Atkins your “diety”? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/36 "2004-06-14T14:56:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So, if you worship at the low-carb altar, is Atkins your “diety”? 😛 Not necessarily. I tried Atkins for four days, and found myself praying to the Porcelain God. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/37 "2004-06-14T15:28:33Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Not so. The so-called atheism of the USSR and the PRC was no more than anti-Christian suppression. One has only to examine the cults of personality surrounding Lenin, Stalin, and Mao to see that the Chinese and Soviet governments were far from atheist. Huh? Are you claiming that these cults literally believed these figures were deities? I find that pretty hard to swallow. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/38 "2004-06-14T15:37:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Huh? Are you claiming that these cults literally believed these figures were deities? I find that pretty hard to swallow. > > Daniel I’ll go out on a limb and try to answer for **gobear**. I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong. It’s not that Lenin (for example) was believed to be a deity, but rather that the movement became such a strong system of belief that it engendered the same sort of fanatical fervor that one might see in utter devotion to a religion. It wasn’t atheism per se that drove the comrads, but an ism in and of itself, and one composed of more than a mere lack of faith in gods. The movement, itself, became so god-like that it was hard to distinguish it from religion. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/39 "2004-06-14T15:51:01Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > What Cerri said. > > It has always been my understanding that an atheist DOES NOT believe in God. Agnostics are not sure. > > I can’t “not believe in God” any more than I already do. It’s like a see-saw. Believers are on one end. Athiests are on the other. Agnostics are balanced in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184/40 "2004-06-14T15:57:11Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > There’s no such thing as a liberal atheist or a moderate atheist or a fundamentalist atheist. Probably not, if you are discussing actual Fundamentalism. However, the OP included the following points: > [@Brandus](#): > > They are people who think dialogue is worthless since they have the ultimate truth and anyone who disagrees is evil. They are people who think that ever being wrong is a failure and not an opportunity for growth. They think that education and faith are mutually exclusive. I submit that there are several self-identified Atheists who post to the SDMB who clearly think that dialogue is worthless, that everyone who disagrees is evil, and that education and faith are mutually exclusive. Several also appear to believe that error equals failure. Now, as it happens, the definition that **Brandus** provided was not an accurate definition of Fundamentalism. However, this is his **Pit** rant and he can set up whatever definition he chooses in order to express his ire. Within the definition that he provided, I would have to say that there are Fundamentalist Atheists, although I would agree that under the standard definition of Fundamentalism, there are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-fundamentalists/250184.md?page=3)