# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/261 "2011-09-07T19:37:31Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > …Democrats knew the existing population would never go for their harebrained schemes, so they imported a bunch of people who would. I’m only going to ask this once, just to be sure that I’m not pointing and laughing at someone who doesn’t really deserve it: you serious? Did you actually suggest that the Dems are importing voters to their own nefarious ends? No shit, you actually believe that? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/262 "2011-09-07T21:08:36Z")
> [@Rekd](#): > > Yeah, the evil Repugs are stealing our election, cuz it can’t be about most Americans being sick and tired of the same old bullshit. Right? > > RIGHT? 😛 This. When there are no real good choices, why bother to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/263 "2011-09-07T21:35:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I do hope American voters come to their senses, soon! **The problem with the disenfranchisement schemes you seem to approve of is that, by the time some voters finally come to their senses [SIZE=“5”]they won’t be allowed to vote**[/SIZE] Spare me. I don’t approve of any disenfranchisement schemes. I’m simply saying that requiring photo ID is pathetically small potatoes compared to the reasons people are already disenfranchised. And your comment about voters not being allowed to vote when they come to their senses is just this side of overly dramatic. Drink some chamomile tea and try to relax. > [@davidm](#): > > Here’s another data-point for this discussion. > > Wisconsin DOT official tells staff not to mention free voter ID cards to the public — unless they ask. > [Top DOT official tells staff not to mention free voter ID cards to the public — unless they ask](http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/capitol-report/article_335f59fa-d8fe-11e0-8a23-001cc4c03286.html) Now this is shady as hell. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > What a load. Those statistics are for recent elections during which ID requirements generally have not existed. The difference in voting rates therefore cannot be due to ID laws. It is much more likely that they are due to young people not really giving a shit about politics. > > Nonsense. This isn’t Mississippi in 1964. What makes it harder for blacks to vote is a general belief that voting doesn’t make a difference. This much I agree with. > [@](#): > > Fiddling around with voting laws is small beer, maybe 1-2% difference at most. It is nothing compared to 50 million left-leaning immigrants (legal and illegal) brought in at the urging of Democrats in the last 50 years. Millions are now voting citizens and millions more are in a pipeline that the Democrats would dearly love to blow clean open and flood the electorate with lots and lots of left-wing immigrants. Even Democrats themselves can’t stop talking about how demographics are working in their favor. That was no natural phenomenon, nor was it all about diversity and humanitarianism; if you think it was, you also are naive and uninitiated. Democrats knew the existing population would never go for their harebrained schemes, so they imported a bunch of people who would. This is fucking insane. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/264 "2011-09-07T21:40:17Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Democrats knew the existing population would never go for their harebrained schemes, so they imported a bunch of people who would. And now we’re stuck with those damned Irish! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/265 "2011-09-07T23:00:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m only going to ask this once, just to be sure that I’m not pointing and laughing at someone who doesn’t really deserve it: you serious? Did you actually suggest that the Dems are importing voters to their own nefarious ends? No shit, you actually believe that? Oh, I don’t know what I could have been thinking. I am sure Democrats support citizenship for illegal immigrants solely because of their deep-seated love for their fellow human beings. I’m sure the electoral implications have nothing at all to do with it. You’re right, questioning the motives of politicians should be beyond the pale. I’m sure that if a million authoritarian right-wingers from Singapore suddenly expressed an interest in coming to the US, the Democrats would be first in line to shake their hands at the airport. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/266 "2011-09-07T23:10:13Z")
OK, barking mad. Thanks for clarifying that. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/267 "2011-09-07T23:16:27Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Oh, I don’t know what I could have been thinking. I am sure Democrats support citizenship for illegal immigrants solely because of their deep-seated love for their fellow human beings. I’m sure the electoral implications have nothing at all to do with it. You’re right, questioning the motives of politicians should be beyond the pale. I’m sure that if a million authoritarian right-wingers from Singapore suddenly expressed an interest in coming to the US, the Democrats would be first in line to shake their hands at the airport. Must everything be a fucking lunatic conspiracy these days? This is so damned insane that it’s not even worth arguing over. There’s so much shit in this post I hope that you crammed your hands in the toilet and flushed it with your feet after you typed it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/268 "2011-09-07T23:50:23Z")
You have to admit, though, that it’s the Democrats by far who benefit by having so many illegal immigrants in the country, if for no other reason than their never-ending defense of illegal immigrants and their equally never-ending efforts to provide them with taxpayer-funded health and financial benefits increase pro-Democrat leanings among American citizens of Hispanic descent. Conspiracy, or happy coincidence? I’m going with happy coincidence myself, though I’m sure its existence is recognized and happily taken advantage of by Democrat politicans and activists. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/269 "2011-09-07T23:56:58Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, I do misunderstand - are you saying that there aren’t really laws in place that say “felons _will not vote_”, but rather “felons may not vote until they go plead their case in front of a judge”? First of all, you have to remember this varies from state to state. So we have some states where a convicted felon may never, ever vote again, or serve on a jury, and so forth. There are probably (I’m not sure, but I seem to recall hearing about it) some states where some of those rights are restored after release/end of parole. There are states in between, where the felon normally loses those rights, but has the \*option \*to petition a judge to have those rights reinstated. This means convincing the judge that the person in question is a trustworthy, reformed person and worthy of once again having those rights. So you can make a definitive statement at anything higher than the state level, and as the laws differe between the various states, there’s a considerable range as to how ex-felons are treated in these matters. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/270 "2011-09-08T00:00:45Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Oh, I don’t know what I could have been thinking. I am sure Democrats support citizenship for illegal immigrants solely because of their deep-seated love for their fellow human beings. I’m sure the electoral implications have nothing at all to do with it. Or it could be a matter of paying attention to [public opinion.](http://people-press.org/2011/05/04/section-8-domestic-issues-and-social-policy/) > [@](#): > > **Views of Immigration** > > There is widespread support across most typology groups for both a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants currently in the country and for stronger enforcement of immigration laws and border security. > > Majorities in seven of eight typology groups – all except Staunch Conservatives – favor providing a way for illegal immigrants in the U.S. to gain citizenship, if they pass background checks, pay fines and have jobs. Staunch Conservatives are evenly divided – with 49% in favor of a path to citizenship and the same number opposed. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/271 "2011-09-08T00:03:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > First of all, you have to remember this varies from state to state. > > So we have some states where a convicted felon may never, ever vote again, or serve on a jury, and so forth. > > There are probably (I’m not sure, but I seem to recall hearing about it) some states where some of those rights are restored after release/end of parole. > > There are states in between, where the felon normally loses those rights, but has the \*option \*to petition a judge to have those rights reinstated. This means convincing the judge that the person in question is a trustworthy, reformed person and worthy of once again having those rights. > > So you can make a definitive statement at anything higher than the state level, and as the laws differe between the various states, there’s a considerable range as to how ex-felons are treated in these matters. This brings up another concern - do all these different ways of handling voter eligibility go away when we are voting on things like POTUS? Or is this something that seriously affects whether a state goes red or blue? And **luci**? I simply cannot see how you can support the OP and yet call **Hyperelastic** barking mad for pointing out how it is done by the other side. That some seriously blind bias there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/272 "2011-09-08T00:19:59Z")
Total synchronicity. I got the Pubbie Dog and Phony Show on. A crazy person just talked, and is being followed by another crazy person. Now its Newt. And he’s less crazy. And what a long strange trip its being. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/273 "2011-09-08T00:21:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You have to admit, though, that it’s the Democrats by far who benefit by having so many illegal immigrants in the country, if for no other reason than their never-ending defense of illegal immigrants and their equally never-ending efforts to provide them with taxpayer-funded health and financial benefits increase pro-Democrat leanings among American citizens of Hispanic descent. > > Conspiracy, or happy coincidence? > > I’m going with happy coincidence myself, though I’m sure its existence is recognized and happily taken advantage of by Democrat politicans and activists. Oh indeed. It’s been a smashing success so far. Those dems have been in power for ages and I fully believe that the sun shall never set upon the democrats. Do you people even think before you come up with this nonsense? The republicans are stealing elections by requiring photo ID in some states and keeping 11% of the population out of the voting booth. The democrats meanwhile are stealing elections by allowing teeming hordes of unwashed and leftist latinos to surge across the border. No wonder we can’t get anything done. Everyone is too busy trying to steal the next election. Honestly I think I’d much rather live in your worlds than mine. They seem exciting. Like a painfully dumb season of 24, but without all the messy nukes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/274 "2011-09-08T00:32:21Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > …And **luci**? I simply cannot see how you can support the OP and yet call **Hyperelastic** barking mad for pointing out how it is done by the other side. That some seriously blind bias there. Well, see, _mon cher Curli_, its just that idea of “importing” illegal aliens to some nefarious lefty goal. I’m a lefty, a radical lefty, on the conservative wing of the extreme left. I’ve been talking and arguing with other lefties for…quite a while. And I have never heard anything so barking mad from any of _them_. Yet here I am solemnly assured that what we are thinking is known to him, he’s got the goods. Have I a bias? Yeah, sure, plead guilty, get it over with. But a blind bias? Not hardly, known these people all my adult life. And I swear to you on the grin of Wavy Gravy, it ain’t so. Not saying none of them never had a wacky notion, just that that wasn’t one of them. And I never lie unless I got some cards in my hand. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/275 "2011-09-08T00:52:46Z")
I don’t get it. Because some people are saying that cynical and opportunistic Republican politicians are passing laws designed to disenfranchise potential Democratic voters, we must therefore accept as equally credible a hypothesis that Democrats have engaged in a 50 year long campaign to flood the USA with millions of pinkos? Because it’s axiomatic that both sides are equally bad? Is that it? Or, well, what? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/276 "2011-09-08T01:00:34Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Do you people even think before you come up with this nonsense? The republicans are stealing elections by requiring photo ID in some states and keeping 11% of the population out of the voting booth. The democrats meanwhile are stealing elections by allowing teeming hordes of unwashed and leftist latinos to surge across the border. No wonder we can’t get anything done. Everyone is too busy trying to steal the next election. Who said anything about hordes of unwashed latinos? :dubious: Election times are well known. If you can’t save up enough dough in the two to four years before the election that you know is going to take place in order to get a photo ID, then how are you paying for rent and clothing and food in the meantime? The notion that it’s impossible for people to afford a photo ID is nonsense. What you are basically saying is _“Hey, here’s this group of ne’er do wells and miscreants who will vote for us because they know we’ll take money from other people and give it to them, so let’s get out there and make sure they get to the polls so they can vote for us.”_ Then the Pubbies see what you’re up to, and, knowing that these people nonetheless are entitled to vote if they want to provided they can do so legally, decide that at the very least they can try to limit the damage by making sure that the only people who vote are…wait for it…people who are legally entitled to do so! What a concept! Alas, most attempts to make sure people do things legally are anathema to the left, and so the poor Pubbies get called names and have their motives impugned, and inflammatory things they never said get attributed to them, all because they don’t want people voting for the other side who aren’t entitled to do so. You guys have such a horrendous record when it comes to playing fair, is it any wonder that the other side wants to make damn sure you’re doing things honestly? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/277 "2011-09-08T01:15:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You have to admit, though, that it’s the Democrats by far who benefit by having so many illegal immigrants in the country, if for no other reason than their never-ending defense of illegal immigrants and their equally never-ending efforts to provide them with taxpayer-funded health and financial benefits increase pro-Democrat leanings among American citizens of Hispanic descent. You _nailed_ it, as always. No benefit at all from all the cheap labor, which doesn’t in any way benefit large businesses, who in turn don’t fund Republican candidates, ever. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/278 "2011-09-08T01:15:56Z")
Gonna quibble with you a bit, **Paul**. Sometimes minor points can be important. Its not so much “disenfranchise”. Its similar to, but thats an exaggeration. Its not about stopping someone from voting, thats the cover story, that its about stopping illegal, illicit voting. its more about hindering, making it tiresome, difficult. That is a much more efficient means to the end. Its not designed to create enmity, its designed to foster apathy. You talk with anybody like ACORN (and I have) and they will tell you flat out that the Republicans are not the number one enemy, the number one enemy is a pervasive sense of hopelessness and apathy. The poor and powerless must first be convinced that change is possible, and the second be convinced that they can effect that change. So this little thing, this hindrance, appears from the outside to be a minor inconvenience, just pop on down to the DMV, whats the problem? But from that inner perspective, for the people being hindered, it is a problem, and they tell us so. Is there some compelling reason we shouldn’t believe them? But its not actually about “disenfranchising”, stopping them in their tracks. A determined citizen will manage to get there. But other citizens don’t have to be determined, or even inconvenienced. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/279 "2011-09-08T01:29:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …I think not. A long held suspicion confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/280 "2011-09-08T01:53:24Z")
**Elucidator** , fair enough, bad choice of wording on my part. Of course these laws do not actually prevent people from voting. I follow US politics only incidentally as a former LPR (I guess one of the alien horde, really, but I left before I got the chance to contribute to the Trotskyist takeover) so I may not be fully up on the issues. So perhaps I should rephrase. It looks, on the face of it, like two things are being compared: a) Some people (broadly speaking, Democrats or those who lean left) are asserting that Republicans legislatures are using their power to suppress Democratic votes, citing a non-problem as justification for laws that will make it more difficult for people to cast a ballot. b) Others (broadly speaking those on the right, or on Thorazine), are asserting that Democrats have engaged in a 50 year long conspiracy to secure their dominance by admitting immigrants who lean left and, c) That these assertions are equally credible because we all know both parties do bad things. Does that seem to be a fair summation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=15)