# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/341 "2011-09-08T17:45:38Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > If they are so concerned about election fraud, then why haven’t I heard anything about the black boxes we vote on. They provide a more reliable and harder to prove way to change outcomes. Whether or not they’ve ever been actually subverted is an open question, but certainly the possibility is there. Don’t they deserve _at least_ as much attention? Aren’t verifiable vote counts at least as important as verifiable voters? I don’t think you have been looking hard enough. [2005 Voluntary Voting System Guidelines.](http://www.eac.gov/testing_and_certification/2005_vvsg.aspx) 39 states use these guidelines as a basis for their election procedures and equipment requirements. They went into effect in 2007, and address the issue of verifiable vote counts. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/342 "2011-09-08T17:49:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Many people have expressed the sentiment that actual voter fraud is negligble. > > By the same token, the percentage of actual people that can’t get an ID is negligble. In fact, the plaintiffs in _Marion_ couldn’t produce a single person who was actually unable to get an ID. Let’s talk for a minute about a little thing called the “status quo” and changing it. When you want to change the established stature of law, you should have a good reason for doing so. For example, if you want to tighten voter registration, you should present reason the believe that it is necessary. If this cannot be demonstrated, then there is _no reason to change the law_. Especially not when it has side-effects like this. It’s like how, when you don’t have a headache, you don’t take medicine for it (especially not when the medicine has a harmful side-effect!). But hey, you know what, let’s ignore all that. Let’s pretend that it doesn’t matter in the slightest, and just talk bout the idea that the second part of your post makes a whit of difference. It doesn’t. First off, what’s Marion, a court case? Please cite. I’d like to know the context, because saying “someone is unable to get an ID” is like saying “someone is unable to walk 10 miles to work each day”. You’d be hard-pressed to find someone who _couldn’t_ (even cripples or the wheelchair-bound could technically do that 10-mile walk if it’s in an urban area), but then again you’d also be hard-pressed to find someone who would want to, and for a lot of people, that 10-mile walk is unfeasible and cuts far too much time out of a day where they are already spending god knows how many hours working, still need to try to find another part/full-time job. Just about everyone _can_ get the license (if they give up a day’s wages for the money and about half a day that really needs to be spent working to get the damn thing). That doesn’t mean that it’s a realistically viable option for them most of the time. It may mean going without food for a day or so. So please don’t act like that anyone “can” get an ID makes everything OK. It really, really doesn’t. And when you look at the motivation for this, and see that at the same time that they’re doing this, they’re also closing DMVs in the poorest areas… Yeah. Fuck that. > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Just because it is implausible [doesn’t mean it can’t happen from time to time.](http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/23/local/me-compton23) > > The councilwoman involved here, Leslie Irving, was later found guilty of committing offenses against the electorate and barred permanently from holding elected office in California. 8 people in California. Well, it’s _something_. But is it more widespread? Or is it _just_ 8 people in California? Cuz that’s for all intents and purposes _nothing_. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/343 "2011-09-08T17:58:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so lets make a deal. > > We’ll stipulate that voter ID with picture is required. It has to be free, of course. And there has to be a serious outreach program to ensure that such documentation is not only available, but easily obtained for shut-ins, etc. Like ACORN, but can’t be shut down my some pimply little turd with a video camera. Shirley nobody has an objection to registering voters, right? Well, actually, they do, but they want to pretend they don’t, so that works. > > What do I want in return? Equality in the voting place. If a guy in a gated community only needs an hour to arrive at the polling place, sign in and vote, then the guy in the inner city should have equal facilities, equal access, equality in the voting place. Federal money, federal standards, federal enforcement. We give on strict procedures for identification, you give us equality of voting places. > > Sounds fair. Anyone want to guess which political party will find this objectionable. Bueller? Bueller? **Bricker**? Assuming said outreach program actually _works_, this would be a great solution. Better/more polling stations is _also_ something I advocate. But the problem, of course, is ensuring that we _have_ it free and easy-to-get. \>.\> ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/344 "2011-09-08T18:16:27Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I don’t think you have been looking hard enough. > > [2005 Voluntary Voting System Guidelines.](http://www.eac.gov/testing_and_certification/2005_vvsg.aspx) 39 states use these guidelines as a basis for their election procedures and equipment requirements. > > They went into effect in 2007, and address the issue of verifiable vote counts. I’m sorry, but these machines do not provide for transparent, verifiable elections, regardless of guidelines. Any software complex enough to handle the function of recording and tabulating an election cannot ever be guaranteed to be bug free. No guideline can change that. I can pull out my IT credentials if you’d like. Where I vote we simply push buttons to register our choices. I have absolutely no proof that my choices are recorded accurately, and there is no way for anyone to determine if the totals accurately reflect the intentions of the voters. There is no way to do a meaningful recount with these machines. You push a button and you get a count. A recount just means doing the same thing again. All we have are the promises of some people that the machines meet some dubious guidelines. Do they really? I have no idea, and neither do you. We should not have to depend on the word of _anybody_ that our votes are being counted accurately. Elections are supposed to be transparent, publicly observable, and verifiable. Votes that are counted on chips and hard drives are none of those things. The only way to make elections transparent, observable, and verifiable (and thus _legal_) is to have hard copy records created by the original voter. Those records have to be counted publicly with observers from all interested parties, and those records must be available for a recount if any questions arise. THAT is the issue that true believers in election integrity should be fighting for. Fraud by individual voters is a distant second or third behind that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/345 "2011-09-08T18:17:15Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > No one wants to address my points in [post #325](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14232611&postcount=325)? > Why the enormous emphasis on this one type of mostly unproductive fraud? I find your post intelligent, perceptive, and accurate. To the extent that my opinion is at variance with yours, I wlll amend mine to fit. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/346 "2011-09-08T18:21:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > And this is the key problem. That I don’t care what goes on in a state hundreds of miles away, to one person, to watch a 10 minute video, after being given a description of what happened in it? > [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I dunno. I don’t think (s)he was asserting that the Democrats scoured the globe for sympathetic brown people and dumped them en masse in the USA in order to win an election. Actually, I’m not sure I understand what the claim was at all, and **Hyperelastic** ’s clarification was not, um, clear. Simply that the Democrats have always been pro-legalization of illegal immigrants because they apparently tend to vote Democrat. > [@davidm](#): > > I have to say that I find it implausible that any meaningful number of illegal immigrants try to vote. That’s not the claim - the claim is that the Democrats want to legalize them so they _can_ vote. > [@](#): > > I also don’t understand what the motivation would be for Democrats to attempt to get them to vote. There are large numbers of legal minorities and poor who don’t currently vote. They constitute a large pool of voters for the Democrats to go after, making the risky solicitation of illegal votes completely unnecessary. For all we know, the Democrats are already targeting getting the legal minorities and poor registered and out to vote. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/347 "2011-09-08T18:22:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I find your post intelligent, perceptive, and accurate. To the extent that my opinion is at variance with yours, I wlll amend mine to fit. LOL. I’m not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I appreciate your support, I think. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/348 "2011-09-08T18:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > …For all we know, the Democrats are already targeting getting the legal minorities and poor registered and out to vote. You got us, **Curly** , got us dead to rights. Not a leg to stand on. We are trying to get people to vote. Might of got away with it, too, not for you. Damn! ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/349 "2011-09-08T18:33:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Simply that the Democrats have always been pro-legalization of illegal immigrants because they apparently tend to vote Democrat. I can’t speak for every liberal, but I’ve never even heard this idea expressed or intimated. I, personally, feel that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” I do not endorse illegal immigration. However, for those here that can be productive members of society, I welcome thee. How can I fault these people for seeking a better life for themselves and their families? Especially when their own governments are such a mess that legal immigration most likely isn’t even an option. I feel that, in their shoes, I would do the same thing. These people travel hundreds of miles over harsh terrain and through dangerous conditions to seek a better life. That’s nothing short of courageous. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/350 "2011-09-08T18:37:21Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > 8 people in California. Well, it’s _something_. But is it more widespread? Or is it _just_ 8 people in California? Cuz that’s for all intents and purposes _nothing_. Probably been posted before but will post it again: > [@](#): > > Since 2002, the Justice Department’s Ballot Access and Voting Integrity Initiative has, as Gonzales put it, “made enforcement of election fraud and corruption offenses a top priority.” And yet between October 2002 and September 2005, just 38 cases were brought nationally, and of those, 14 ended in dismissals or acquittals, 11 in guilty pleas, and 13 in convictions. Though a Justice Department manual on election crime states that these cases “may present an easier means of obtaining convictions than do other forms of public corruption,” federal attorneys have failed to rack up those convictions, for the simple reason that incidents of fraud have been few and far between. > > As the Republican Myth has it, nothing is more fraught with fraud than voter-registration campaigns waged in working-class and poor neighborhoods that are largely black or Hispanic. According to the 2004 Census, 15 percent of blacks and Hispanics were registered during such campaigns; the figure for whites is just 9 percent. But of those 38 prosecutions that the Justice Department brought between 2002 and 2005, a grand total of two were for fabricating or falsifying voter registration applications. This qualifies as one of our smaller crime waves. > > SOURCE: [http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2007/05/16/12920/voter-fraud-study/](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2007/05/16/12920/voter-fraud-study/) ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/351 "2011-09-08T18:52:02Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Simply that the Democrats have always been pro-legalization of illegal immigrants because they apparently tend to vote Democrat. Well, but there’s obviously more to it than that. I mean, if it were suggested to me that Democrats are in favour of a policy of amnesty and route to citizenship for illegal immigrants simply because they think said immigrants are more likely to vote Democratic, I suppose I’d see that as a silly but vaguely defensible position. But when someone says, emphasis mine: > [@](#): > > Fiddling around with voting laws is small beer, maybe 1-2% difference at most. **It is nothing compared to 50 million left-leaning immigrants (legal and illegal) brought in at the urging of Democrats in the last 50 years.** Millions are now voting citizens and millions more are in a pipeline that the Democrats would dearly love to blow clean open and flood the electorate with lots and lots of left-wing immigrants. Even Democrats themselves can’t stop talking about how demographics are working in their favor. That was no natural phenomenon, nor was it all about diversity and humanitarianism; if you think it was, you also are naive and uninitiated. Democrats knew the existing population would never go for their harebrained schemes, so they imported a bunch of people who would. that’s a qualitively different claim. Ach, well, it’s kind of off-topic anyhow, and I can’t reasonably ask you to defend someone else’s point of view. But I don’t think this was an unreasonable thing to challenge, and I don’t think the challenge has been answered. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/352 "2011-09-08T18:56:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Probably been posted before but will post it again: Thanks. 🙂 Now let’s see if there are any conflicting sources forthcoming… Inb4nothing ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/353 "2011-09-08T19:01:12Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > No one wants to address my points in [post #325](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14232611&postcount=325)? > Why the enormous emphasis on this one type of mostly unproductive fraud? I concur with your sentiments in that post. In truth, though, so does everyone else - on both sides of this debate. It’s so glaringly, screamingly obvious what’s going on. Of course, those on the right can’t just come out and say “we’re trying to stop the proles from voting because they’ll likely vote against us.” Some do, right enough, but most are not so shameless. But as someone way, way upthread said, we’re all adults here. We know what this is about. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/354 "2011-09-08T19:13:19Z")
It’s not like the right hasn’t tried to discourage voting before. Why is it so unlikely that that’s what is going on now? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck; it probably ain’t a goose! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/355 "2011-09-08T19:15:07Z")
It is simply about voter suppression in demographics that tilt Democratic. Are they after the fraud in fancy neighborhoods ? If they look, I am sure they will find it. Then we can stop elections completely because the results can not be relied upon when you can find a case or two. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/356 "2011-09-08T19:48:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So the workers there were making it a hassle because…why? You want me to explain why dealing with a DMV employee might be unpleasant?🙂 Could using a bank statement as proof of identity be unusual? Actually I live in Florida and the DMV employees I’ve dealt with were perfectly pleasant, even thou the requirements to get a driver license renewed in Florida are much worse than Wisconsin. I had to show up with my birth certificate and social security card and it turns out that they didn’t accept Visa, only Mastercard. Getting registered to vote is much easier in Florida. You can do it online. I don’t why anybody would go to the DMV to register. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/357 "2011-09-08T20:32:48Z")
Off the top of my head, I’d guess that it would be somewhat difficult to register on line, if you’re too poor to own a computer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/358 "2011-09-08T20:44:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > For all we know, the Democrats are already targeting getting the legal minorities and poor registered and out to vote. :rolleyes: This should be far too obvious to need stating (again), but [get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489075) ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/359 "2011-09-08T21:11:20Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I can’t speak for every liberal, but I’ve never even heard this idea expressed or intimated. It’s not my idea - its upthread someplace. > [@](#): > > I do not endorse illegal immigration. However, for those here that can be productive members of society, I welcome thee. You don’t live any place with a high population of illegals, do you? > [@](#): > > How can I fault these people for seeking a better life for themselves and their families? At my expense? > [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Well, but there’s obviously more to it than that. I mean, if it were suggested to me that Democrats are in favour of a policy of amnesty and route to citizenship for illegal immigrants simply because they think said immigrants are more likely to vote Democratic, I suppose I’d see that as a silly but vaguely defensible position. But when someone says, emphasis mine: > > that’s a qualitively different claim. > > Ach, well, it’s kind of off-topic anyhow, and I can’t reasonably ask you to defend someone else’s point of view. But I don’t think this was an unreasonable thing to challenge, and I don’t think the challenge has been answered. I’m not here to defend or challenge it, I merely put it out there in contrast to the OP. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: This should be far too obvious to need stating (again), but [get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489075) I am not equating this to “get out the vote”, I am equating it to the OP’s idea that the things listed in there are done by Republicans simply to have more folks vote their way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/360 "2011-09-08T21:43:40Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am not equating this to “get out the vote”, I am equating it to the OP’s idea that the things listed in there are done by Republicans simply to have more folks vote their way. No, they are things done by Republicans simply to have fewer folks vote the other way. That makes all the difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=19)