# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/361 "2011-09-08T21:44:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, they are things done by Republicans simply to have fewer folks vote the other way. That makes all the difference. Ignoring that it hasn’t been proven (as far as I know, I have been skipping some responses here), why would that make all the difference? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/362 "2011-09-08T21:45:22Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ignoring that it hasn’t been proven (as far as I know, I have been skipping some responses here), why would that make all the difference? See post #358. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/363 "2011-09-08T21:47:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See post #358. I did see that one - did you intend that I read further than the OP in that thread? If so, let me know what part of it you want me to look at. If not, you’ll need to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/364 "2011-09-08T21:57:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: This should be far too obvious to need stating (again), but [get-out-the-vote and voter suppression are not equally legitimate political tactics.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489075) Apparently getting more people to participate in the government is bad. Stopping people who are qualified from voting is a good thing. (if they are likely Dems). But don’t think it is for Repub political gain. That is pure coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/365 "2011-09-08T22:19:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ignoring that it hasn’t been proven (as far as I know, I have been skipping some responses here), why would that make all the difference? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14233916&postcount=124](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14233916&postcount=124) Same as with brickster; you either are morally bankrupt or do not understand how democracy works. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/366 "2011-09-08T22:19:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Go fuck yourself. [Moderating] This is a violation of the Pit’s [language rules.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Please do not use such language against other posters. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/367 "2011-09-08T23:43:18Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Nope. Can get them with holograms too. Not sure about the site I first visited, but when I specifically searched for holograms, plenty of sites popped up, though they were more expensive ($45-$130 for the sites I checked). > > Well, let’s see. Are they just making it a little harder, a little less convenient, to cheat(vote)? Perhaps we should way the cost/benefit for banks and airports (polls) to check IDs as opposed to not to see if it’s worthwhile to take that route? Perhaps they’re just trying to discourage the lazy from even trying to cheat (vote). So motivated people can cheat at voting no matter what. That certainly doesn’t disprove the need for photo ID. Using the same logic that making a person jump through a hoop (get legal ID) before a goal (voting) prevents them from doing such a thing, forcing them to get a fake ID to rig the vote will prevent them from doing it. If anything this argument itself would be cause for stricter controls over who can vote and not less controls. I’m honestly not sure why you posted it at all. And do note that I’m not saying that there is widespread election fraud. I believe I’ve already been clear about that one. I’m just saying that this whole fake ID tangent is a dead end for a couple of reasons. > [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so lets make a deal. > > We’ll stipulate that voter ID with picture is required. It has to be free, of course. And there has to be a serious outreach program to ensure that such documentation is not only available, but easily obtained for shut-ins, etc. Like ACORN, but can’t be shut down my some pimply little turd with a video camera. **Shirley nobody has an objection to registering voters, right? Well, actually, they do, but they want to pretend they don’t, so that works**. Just to clarify. You’re of course not referring to those in this thread that disagree with you. Unless you’re referring to the whackadoo going off about the democrat conspiracy to import millions of mexican day voters. > [@](#): > > What do I want in return? Equality in the voting place. If a guy in a gated community only needs an hour to arrive at the polling place, sign in and vote, then the guy in the inner city should have equal facilities, equal access, equality in the voting place. Federal money, federal standards, federal enforcement. We give on strict procedures for identification, you give us equality of voting places. > > Sounds fair. Anyone want to guess which political party will find this objectionable. Bueller? Bueller? **Bricker**? Not to piss on your wheaties or anything (especially as it’s a bit late for wheaties and you really don’t seem the wheaties type), but there are perfectly fair reasons to object to this plan. Logistics for starters. The sheer number of polling places to make sure that nobody has to travel too far to vote. Staffing these polling places. Getting enough space to make sure that higher population urban areas have enough people to process the numbers of people coming in and out. The fucking cost. As lovely as your idea would be, it’s a pretty damn high order. And lest ye doubt my sincere belief in the rights of people to vote, not only do I think that any person convicted should regain their voting rights as soon as they (legally) exit the prison, I think anyone that can prove they paid a years worth of taxes (legal immigrant or not) should get a vote. They’ve paid a stake after all. And I must say that I am curious about time and distance for voting. I live in a small population rural area so for me voting is an in-and-out process. Takes maybe ten minutes to wait for someone to fill in all their preferred ovals. What are the logistics of voting nationwide? Distance to polling places. That sort of thing. I’d imagine that in high population density areas the wait to vote can be daunting simply given the number of people voting in a given locality, but is this really a nationwide problem that needs to be addressed? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/368 "2011-09-09T00:09:55Z")
Wheaties? Hell, you want to pee on the Wheaties, why not. Maybe fill a big ol’ bowl full of Wheaties, and pour a Coors over it, eliminate the middleman. Equality in the polling place is tangential to the main line, here. And though I have some strong opinions on the subject, nobody else much gives a shit. So, I’m going to pass, for here and now. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/369 "2011-09-09T00:11:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14233916&postcount=124](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14233916&postcount=124) > > Same as with brickster; you either are morally bankrupt or do not understand how democracy works. :smack: Because you haven’t been clear? Okay… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/370 "2011-09-09T00:14:26Z")
City dwellers that tend to vote Dem will have lots of obstacles to overcome. The Repubs will contest a persons right at the poll, so he votes a provisional ballot. They have sent info to homes ,telling them the voter station has been changed. They have sent info telling voters a wrong date. If the Repubs are in charge, they will shut some polls causing very long lines at the open ones. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/371 "2011-09-09T01:03:59Z")
OK, I need to know how the voter fraud is occurring. Obvioulsy I have made some assumptions that may or may not correct. I live in California, and we do things a little differently here. But I registered to vote. On the registration form, I seem to recall having to list my address and my Social Security Number. Now I have assumed that all the names from registration go into database. From the database, I assume that they run queries that look for duplicate names and SSNs. From the this, I assume that they cull the names and group them as to their polling place. The rolls go to the polling place where they wait for me to show up. When I show up to vote, they ask for name and my address, they look for my name on the list and mark on it to show that I was there to vote. This part I have seen them do. Now, the fraud has to start at the registration part, right? I mean a fraudulent voter cannot simply wander into a polling place and cast a vote because his\her name has to _already be on the roll_. If they claim to be someone else on the roll and know that person’s name and address, then they would have to be sure that person wasn’t going to show up later or else they would KNOW that someone has commited voter fraud. So someone has to falsify a registration. Is there investigation when someone registers? Is there software to look for red flags? They do look for duplicate names and SSN numbers, right? Or bogus SSNs? Is each state’s process drastically different, making some state’s more susceptible to fraud? Help me out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/372 "2011-09-09T01:07:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so lets make a deal. > > We’ll stipulate that voter ID with picture is required. It has to be free, of course. And there has to be a serious outreach program to ensure that such documentation is not only available, but easily obtained for shut-ins, etc. Like ACORN, but can’t be shut down my some pimply little turd with a video camera. Shirley nobody has an objection to registering voters, right? Well, actually, they do, but they want to pretend they don’t, so that works. > > What do I want in return? Equality in the voting place. If a guy in a gated community only needs an hour to arrive at the polling place, sign in and vote, then the guy in the inner city should have equal facilities, equal access, equality in the voting place. Federal money, federal standards, federal enforcement. We give on strict procedures for identification, you give us equality of voting places. > > Sounds fair. Anyone want to guess which political party will find this objectionable. Bueller? Bueller? **Bricker**? I find it objectionable. Why do you believe that the correct balance for a state-mandated, state-funded ID program is federal funding for state voting facilities? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/373 "2011-09-09T01:14:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wheaties? Hell, you want to pee on the Wheaties, why not. Maybe fill a big ol’ bowl full of Wheaties, and pour a Coors over it, eliminate the middleman. Peeing on wheaties is one thing. Pouring Coors over it? That’s just mean. Some things even I won’t stoop to. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/374 "2011-09-09T02:49:09Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > OK, I need to know how the voter fraud is occurring. > > Obvioulsy I have made some assumptions that may or may not correct. I live in California, and we do things a little differently here. > > But I registered to vote. On the registration form, I seem to recall having to list my address and my Social Security Number. You’re not missing anything. Committing voter impersonation fraud is possible, but so expensive that there’s really no way to make it pay. A 30-second ad on the WB will generate more votes for the money. There really isn’t a problem for this solution to address. If Republican US Attorneys couldn’t find it, under threat of dismissal, it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/375 "2011-09-09T03:01:00Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > If Republican US Attorneys couldn’t find it, under threat of dismissal, it doesn’t exist. By the same measure, if the plaintiffs challenging the law in court couldn’t find one example of a person too poor to get an ID, they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/376 "2011-09-09T03:15:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By the same measure, if the plaintiffs challenging the law in court couldn’t find one example of a person too poor to get an ID, they don’t exist. It’s not just about people being too poor to get an ID. Hasn’t that been made clear in this thread by now? It’s about putting one more obstacle in the way of voting. It’s about making it too much of a pain, and too time consuming, for a busy working person to bother. If you’re working two or three jobs just to survive and raise a family, you’re less likely to register if it involves the hassle of obtaining a registered birth certificate and spending an afternoon at the DMV. You may not even have the time to do it. It’s also about wasting tax dollars and people’s time, attacking a non-problem. It’s about Republican Big Government putting itself in the way of people exercising their franchise. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/377 "2011-09-09T03:23:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By the same measure, if the plaintiffs challenging the law in court couldn’t find one example of a person too poor to get an ID, they don’t exist. Greater participation in the electoral process is a public good. Anything that has the effect of limiting it has to demonstrate an actual issue that needs addressing. There is no evidence that the system already in place is insufficient. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/378 "2011-09-09T03:58:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By the same measure, if the plaintiffs challenging the law in court couldn’t find one example of a person too poor to get an ID, they don’t exist. So are you saying (a) these laws will have zero effect on any legitimate voter turnout, and will only prevent fraud or (b) these laws won’t make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to vote, just more difficult, and thus there’s no conflict of interest or political implications worth worrying about? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/379 "2011-09-09T04:18:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I find it objectionable. Why do you believe that the correct balance for a state-mandated, state-funded ID program is federal funding for state voting facilities? Why do you feel the Federal government has no valid legitimate interest in ensuring it’s composed by the true consent of the governed, not just those better able to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/380 "2011-09-09T04:41:34Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It’s not just about people being too poor to get an ID. Hasn’t that been made clear in this thread by now? > > It’s about putting one more obstacle in the way of voting. It’s about making it too much of a pain, and too time consuming, for a busy working person to bother. > > If you’re working two or three jobs just to survive and raise a family, you’re less likely to register if it involves the hassle of obtaining a registered birth certificate and spending an afternoon at the DMV. You may not even have the time to do it. > > It’s also about wasting tax dollars and people’s time, attacking a non-problem. It’s about Republican Big Government putting itself in the way of people exercising their franchise. Typically, Republicans inveigh against “Big Government,” when referring to federal initiatives that stretch the power and reach of the federal government beyond its limited, enumerated powers. While it may be true that you are less likely to register under those circumstances, in my view that’s not sufficient to condemn the process. And the Supreme Court shares my view, at least insofar as the Constitution is concerned. You disagree. Then convince enough people to agree with you, and get the law changed. You extoll the virtues of democracy but are remarkably resistant to it’s operation; these laws were passed by duly-elected representatives and thus embody the very process you claim to favor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=20)