# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/381 "2011-09-09T04:42:58Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Greater participation in the electoral process is a public good. Anything that has the effect of limiting it has to demonstrate an actual issue that needs addressing. There is no evidence that the system already in place is insufficient. That’s an interesting rule. Did you make it up? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/382 "2011-09-09T04:44:00Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So are you saying (a) these laws will have zero effect on any legitimate voter turnout, and will only prevent fraud > or > (b) these laws won’t make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to vote, just more difficult, and thus there’s no conflict of interest or political implications worth worrying about? (a) no (b) no, but close ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/383 "2011-09-09T04:45:07Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Why do you feel the Federal government has no valid legitimate interest in ensuring it’s composed by the true consent of the governed, not just those better able to vote? I didn’t say that. Why do you feel you need to argue against stuff I didn’t say? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/384 "2011-09-09T04:45:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Typically, Republicans inveigh against “Big Government,” when referring to federal initiatives that stretch the power and reach of the federal government beyond its limited, enumerated powers. > > While it may be true that you are less likely to register under those circumstances, in my view that’s not sufficient to condemn the process. And the Supreme Court shares my view, at least insofar as the Constitution is concerned. > > You disagree. Then convince enough people to agree with you, and get the law changed. You extoll the virtues of democracy but are remarkably resistant to it’s operation; these laws were passed by duly-elected representatives and thus embody the very process you claim to favor. Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that it was un-American to speak out against laws that I disagree with. I’m sure you’ve never done such a thing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/385 "2011-09-09T05:05:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By the same measure, if the plaintiffs challenging the law in court couldn’t find one example of a person too poor to get an ID, they don’t exist. Why should I have to spend any money to vote? What’s next, a $10 entry fee to the voting booth? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/386 "2011-09-09T05:07:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You extoll the virtues of democracy but are remarkably resistant to it’s operation; these laws were passed by duly-elected representatives and thus embody the very process you claim to favor. Demonstrably false, but a good try, **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/387 "2011-09-09T05:20:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (a) no > (b) no, but close OK, so what precisely is your opinion? And on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you think the motivation behind these laws is partisan as opposed to genuinely concerned with voter fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/388 "2011-09-09T05:54:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why should I have to spend any money to vote? What’s next, a $10 entry fee to the voting booth? Do they let you vote naked? They don’t - so you have to spend money on clothes in order to vote. Vote suppression!!!11eleven! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/389 "2011-09-09T06:56:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do they let you vote naked? They don’t - so you have to spend money on clothes in order to vote. Vote suppression!!!11eleven! The Dipshit Store called, they’re running out of you. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/390 "2011-09-09T08:52:51Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > OK, I need to know how the voter fraud is occurring. 😕 😕 Check the cites. The level of detected fraud is almost zero. The obstacles are intended to force some people to waste time and money in order to register or vote. Even some Dopers here are saying, between the lines, that it’s a better democracy if insufficiently motivated people are given disincentives to vote. That may be a defensible position, but please don’t pretend these “reforms” are non-partisan. In some cases the “reforms” (e.g. long lines to register or vote) were applied only in areas that vote Democrat. Dopers here have not addressed malice like this, preferring to score debating points by addressing only the weakest charges. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/391 "2011-09-09T10:26:00Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It’s not just about people being too poor to get an ID. Hasn’t that been made clear in this thread by now? > > It’s about putting one more obstacle in the way of voting. It’s about making it too much of a pain, and too time consuming, for a busy working person to bother. > > If you’re working two or three jobs just to survive and raise a family, you’re less likely to register if it involves the hassle of obtaining a registered birth certificate and spending an afternoon at the DMV. You may not even have the time to do it. > > It’s also about wasting tax dollars and people’s time, attacking a non-problem. It’s about Republican Big Government putting itself in the way of people exercising their franchise. Are we really going to keep putting a finer and finer point on this? What percentage of the 11% without valid photo ID do you think there are with two or three jobs and still no time to swing by the DMV? I’d say those people are going to be too busy actually working to vote anyways. And if they’ve the motivation to work multiple jobs and the inclination to vote, an ID requirement is going to stop them? The photo ID is going to be the thing that disenfranchises them. Really? Honestly. These arguments are getting more and more ridiculous. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why should I have to spend any money to vote? What’s next, a $10 entry fee to the voting booth? Oh stop it. Go back and read the thread. This has been covered already. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/392 "2011-09-09T10:27:13Z")
And one of the ads at the bottom of this thread was for a fake ID website. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/393 "2011-09-09T11:01:41Z")
One has to wonder where all these industrious two-job-a-day workers are getting their checks cashed, seeing as how they have no way of proving who they are to a bank or check cashing service. And how did they manage to rent a place to live, or get set up with utilities? How do they pay their bills? The fact is that unless you are being 100% supported by someone else and all your bills are being paid by someone else, you are going to find it next to impossible to live without ID. The only way would be to have a cash-under-the-table lifestyle, and that leads back again to my comments about ne’er do wells and miscreants making up a large percentage of people who don’t have ID. So, sorry, **Budget Player Cadet** , but my assertion still stands. There really is no legitimate excuse for adults living on their own to be going through life without some form of identification since it’s almost impossible to live legitimately without one. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/394 "2011-09-09T12:04:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > One has to wonder where all these industrious two-job-a-day workers are getting their checks cashed, seeing as how they have no way of proving who they are to a bank or check cashing service. And how did they manage to rent a place to live, or get set up with utilities? How do they pay their bills? First, quite a few of those two-job-a-day workers on the bottom of the economy are getting paid cash. Yes, sometimes under the table. Second, I am aware of several (somewhat shady) “currency exchanges” in my community that are, shall we say, a bit lax on asking for ID, or are willing to accept ID of lesser types than what you’d need for voting (and several other) purposes. They will cash a check for anyone, for a small fee. My landlord will happily accept payment in cold, hard cash. Above noted currency exchanges will also allow you to pay your utility bills in cash. Or you can purchase a money order, for a small fee. In other words - it’s quite feasible to do all that. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/395 "2011-09-09T12:18:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > First, quite a few of those two-job-a-day workers on the bottom of the economy are getting paid cash. Yes, sometimes under the table. > > Second, I am aware of several (somewhat shady) “currency exchanges” in my community that are, shall we say, a bit lax on asking for ID, or are willing to accept ID of lesser types than what you’d need for voting (and several other) purposes. They will cash a check for anyone, for a small fee. > > My landlord will happily accept payment in cold, hard cash. > > Above noted currency exchanges will also allow you to pay your utility bills in cash. Or you can purchase a money order, for a small fee. > > In other words - it’s quite feasible to do all that. I’ll repeat. What percentage of our 11% of the nation without photo ID is this? How many voters are we looking at? I’m all for 100% voting. I really am, but it’s just not possible to make it perfecty convenient for everyone in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/396 "2011-09-09T12:31:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > First, quite a few of those two-job-a-day workers on the bottom of the economy are getting paid cash. Yes, sometimes under the table. If they’re getting paid cash under the table then neither they nor their employers are paying their taxes and Social Security/Medicare withholding. So they and their employers both qualify as miscreants. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Second, I am aware of several (somewhat shady) “currency exchanges” in my community that are, shall we say, a bit lax on asking for ID, or are willing to accept ID of lesser types than what you’d need for voting (and several other) purposes. They will cash a check for anyone, for a small fee. Yep, shady, llegitimate businesses which no doubt charge exorbitant fees for their services. Why would someone willingly opt to do business with them when an ID would allow them to cash their checks and pay their bills cheaply and easily? Answer: they’re ne’er do wells or miscreants who either can’t or don’t want to risk doing things legitimately. > [@Broomstick](#): > > My landlord will happily accept payment in cold, hard cash. Did he happily rent to you with no history (i.e., previously established identity) and no idea who you are? And unless you live in a bills paid place did the electric company hook you up with no history and no ID? > [@Broomstick](#): > > Above noted currency exchanges will also allow you to pay your utility bills in cash. Or you can purchase a money order, for a small fee. That’s right, you can pay extra money to exchanges or you can pay for money orders. But why would you opt for that extra expense and trouble rather than get an ID? It only makes sense if you have something to hide. > [@Broomstick](#): > > In other words - it’s quite feasible to do all that. Yes, it’s feasable. What it isn’t is reasonable. Why would a person opt to live that way and pay their bills that way rather than simply get an ID which would allow them to open bank accounts and pay their bills cheaply and easily? It’s been my experience that people who utilize check cashing/payment services and pay their bills by money order are overwhelmingly people who could be categorized as ne’er do wells or miscreants, if not both. Seriously, there is just no legitimate reason to be living that way, and almost nobody does unless they’re forced into it by irresponsible or illegal lifestyles. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/397 "2011-09-09T12:42:53Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > OK, so what precisely is your opinion? > > And on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you think the motivation behind these laws is partisan as opposed to genuinely concerned with voter fraud? Your option B was: " these laws won’t make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to vote, just more difficult, and thus there’s no conflict of interest or political implications worth worrying about." My actual opinion: For most voters who need them, the inconvenience of making a trip to the BMV, gathering the required documents, and posing for a photograph surely does not qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting. And even assuming that the burden may not be justified as to a few voters, that’s not ebnough to make the scheme invalid. Now, as to the motivation: I think on a scale of one to ten, “eight” is probably the partisan motivation for these laws and “two” the genuine desire to safeguard against voter fraud. On a scale of one to ten, how partisan is ACORN-type group’s activities and how much is genuine desire to see every single person vote? For example, how much time do such groups spend in lower income areas that vote Republican, such as rural areas? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/398 "2011-09-09T13:07:50Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I dunno. I don’t think (s)he was asserting that the Democrats scoured the globe for sympathetic brown people and dumped them en masse in the USA in order to win an election. Actually, I’m not sure I understand what the claim was at all, and **Hyperelastic** ’s clarification was not, um, clear. Well, let me clarify again. I do not claim that the Democratic leadership met in a smoke-filled room in 1964 and hatched a plan to guarantee a leftward swing by selectively importing leftist immigrants. As far as anything that was said publicly, the Immigration Act of 1965 was primarily a civil rights initiative. But the effect of recent immigration in pushing the country’s politics leftward is well known to [both](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/11/11/obama_victory_took_root_in_kennedy_inspired_immigration_act/) [sides](http://www.cis.org/republican-demise), freely talked about in every national election, and has been for decades. You cannot possibly believe that the left is ignorant of the decisive advantage immigration has given them and that that knowledge does not play into their continued support for immigration. Take away immigration and you can forget about universal healthcare, affirmative action, and most of the rest of the progressive agenda. Any Democratic campaign strategist who doesn’t know this ought to be fired. Everyone knows what the “Southern Strategy” was. You might call left-wing support for immigration, especially from Latin America, the “Global Strategy”. For [instance](http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/0007/exec.htm), > [@The Justice Department](#): > > …it is clear that the end result of CUSA’s success—the naturalization of one million people by September 30, 1996—was appreciated by community-based organization (CBO) representatives and by some administration officials who agreed to be interviewed as a goal that could have electoral benefits. Do you suppose the Clinton Administration may have been less than diligent in rooting out the deficiencies of CUSA (a program to accelerate naturalizations) knowing it was helping them win re-election? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/399 "2011-09-09T14:10:48Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I composed this before the ‘Great Banning’ interrupted my posting and, although the conversation has moved a bit farther afield, I still have some issues with Pennsylvania’s claim. That said: > > I’d sure like to know more about that “real world data”. My reading of the link is that the Department of State got from DOT a number representing the total of all photo IDs issued. Then they compared this number to “a national survey of eligible voters” (whatever that is) and found the difference to be about 1%. > > The number of people possessing photo ID includes some unknown number of people who are not eligible to vote, including felons (or those whose rights have not been restored, anyway – I don’t know Pennsylvania’s system for felons), resident aliens, college students from out of state, and whoever else might have either a driver’s license or need for the alternative ID. Thus the number is clearly inflated, and the scale of the overestimation is unknown. > > And what in blazes is “a national survey of eligible voters” anyway? Some kind of poll? How does it provide an accurate quantification of the number of citizens over the age of majority permanently residing in Pennsylvania (this being what I’d take to be the number of eligible voters)? > > I swear I’m not an overly suspicious guy, really I’m not. But given the politics involved, this ‘one percent’ thing sure smells like an effort to hand-wave away objections to the new requirement for photo ID to vote. “Oh look, this doesn’t really affect hardly anyone, so no need to be concerned about civil rights issues, really, this doesn’t change anything at all, and OH, LOOK!! _SHINY!!”_ > > And **MsRobyn** , I too question the subjective application of ID requirements by poll workers. It turns out that I misspoke about the convicted felons business. [Felons on parole are eligible to vote and have been since 2000.](http://www.votespa.com/portal/server.pt/community/register_to_vote/13518/voter_registration_requirements/585325) Incarcerated felons still can’t vote, although those in pretrial detention and people convicted of misdemeanors can. This relatively small point aside, that doesn’t change the fact that there may be more eligible voters without ID, and those with ID may not be eligible to vote. We do have a fairly conservative governor who wants a voter ID bill passed, so my guess is this is a PR thing intended to “prove” that voter ID isn’t as big a problem as the opposition claims. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > One has to wonder where all these industrious two-job-a-day workers are getting their checks cashed, seeing as how they have no way of proving who they are to a bank or check cashing service. And how did they manage to rent a place to live, or get set up with utilities? How do they pay their bills? There are check-cashing services in poor neighborhoods that don’t require ID, or they’ll take the person’s picture and issue their own ID for the purposes of cashing checks at that establishment. [Or employers are happy to cash checks for their employees.](http://www.naffe.net/lr/legal.htm) (The relevant case is Arizona v. Labor Ready.) > [@](#): > > The fact is that unless you are being 100% supported by someone else and all your bills are being paid by someone else, you are going to find it next to impossible to live without ID. The only way would be to have a cash-under-the-table lifestyle, and that leads back again to my comments about ne’er do wells and miscreants making up a large percentage of people who don’t have ID. Before you paint all these people as “ne’er do wells” and “miscreants”, how about you consider those people who move into a family member’s or friend’s house because of foreclosure or downsizing? Or single adults who choose to rent one bedroom in someone else’s house because it’s less expensive? Or people who live in some sort of group housing? Are you going to call all of them “ne’er do wells” and “miscreants” because they don’t have traditional living arrangements? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/400 "2011-09-09T14:20:05Z")
I see a number of [tu quoque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) (appeal to hypocrisy) arguments being put forth here. Ignoring for the moment whether or not it’s a legitimate kind of argument, and also ignoring whether or not the two sides are really equivalent in this case, doesn’t using it concede the OP’s point? “Yea we’re doing it, but so are you”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=21)