# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/481 "2011-09-10T23:14:42Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You know you make a good point. Oh wait, there’s [other ways to vote](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absentee_ballot#United_States). Fine, then get all your crooks, ne-er do wells and illegal immigrants to vote by absentee ballot. They’ll still run into the same problems though. One way or another they’ve still got to prove they’re legally entitled to vote, whether by absentee ballot or at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/482 "2011-09-10T23:27:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think I see the problem. I’ve known or at least suspected what the problem is all along - you are trying to justify something you knew was underhanded when you did it. Why else would you have assumed that when I said to **Mr Moto** “A reasonable person who realizes that a quote out of context is not to be accepted at face value! Kudos to you!” it must have actually been directed at you and how you tried to, at best, make it too much work to see where that quote came from? Why didn’t you take it at face value - that I was congratulating him for asking for more information? A guilty conscience will tend to get you in trouble. And make you TL;DR ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/483 "2011-09-10T23:54:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’ve known or at least suspected what the problem is all along - you are trying to justify something you knew was underhanded when you did it. Why else would you have assumed that when I said to **Mr Moto** “A reasonable person who realizes that a quote out of context is not to be accepted at face value! Kudos to you!” it must have actually been directed at you and how you tried to, at best, make it too much work to see where that quote came from? Why didn’t you take it at face value - that I was congratulating him for asking for more information? > > A guilty conscience will tend to get you in trouble. And make you TL;DR What color is the sky in your world? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/484 "2011-09-11T01:28:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What color is the sky in your world? You could at least link to the episode of _Cheers_ you got that from. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/485 "2011-09-11T01:36:22Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You could at least link to the episode of _Cheers_ you got that from. I just can’t win with links this week. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/486 "2011-09-11T14:25:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Fine, then get all your crooks, ne-er do wells and illegal immigrants to vote by absentee ballot. They’ll still run into the same problems though. One way or another they’ve still got to prove they’re legally entitled to vote, whether by absentee ballot or at the polls. But wait you were just going on about how people can’t vote without transportation to the polls, but now you’re goin on about all these boogy men. Is “ne-er do wells” your word for the poor? I guess the question I’m asking is why should any eligable voter be denied because the state put up hurdles? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/487 "2011-09-11T14:32:05Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Now that they’ve been caught, [they’ve put up signs detailing the free ID program.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/129400013.html)I suspect the signs were planned ahead of time. I’d also bet that they weren’t planning on putting them up quite so soon. > > There’s also this bit at the end. They were told not to put the signs up. The saga continues. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/488 "2011-09-11T15:19:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They were told not to put the signs up. The saga continues. Do you have a link that states that, or did I miss it in a previous one? The article I linked states the signs were already put up. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/489 "2011-09-11T23:11:28Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > But wait you were just going on about how people can’t vote without transportation to the polls… No, I was asking if the gasoline, bus or taxi expense necessary to get to the polls constituted a “poll tax”, and if not, why does the expense necessary to get an ID constitute a poll tax when most people have them already whether they vote or not? > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > …but now you’re goin on about all these boogy men. Is “ne-er do wells” your word for the poor? No, there are lots of people who are poor but still manage to pay their bills on time and otherwise live in a responsible manner. > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I guess the question I’m asking is why should any eligable voter be denied because the state put up hurdles? The answer is in your question. Without proof, how do we know they’re “eligible”? Having to provide proof of age and citizenship in order to vote in elections which by law stipulate age and citizenship requirements is not a “hurdle”. Why don’t you guys just admit the truth? There are lots of nogoodniks out there who would vote your way (why is that anyhow?) except for the fact that they don’t want anybody to know who they are and where they live, so you’re trying to shoehorn them in through the back door by advocating the elimination of proof of eligibility requirements. You’re motives are painfully transparent and you aren’t fooling anyone, so why not drop the “ID is an unfair expense” dodge and just admit that you want anyone who’ll vote your way to be able to do so whether they’re legal or not? You probably won’t get any further but at least you’ll be able to look yourselves in the mirror and congratulate yourselves for being at least somewhat honest. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/490 "2011-09-11T23:18:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, I was asking if the gasoline, bus or taxi expense necessary to get to the polls constituted a “poll tax”, and if not, why does the expense necessary to get an ID constitute a poll tax when most people have them already whether they vote or not? **Bricker** answered this [upthread a ways](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14232537&postcount=320). Basically the direct cost of the mandatory photo ID is akin to a poll tax in that it is a direct cost required to vote. This is why, for example, Wisconsin tacked free voter IDs on to their voting law and why they were forced to put up signs and such about it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/491 "2011-09-11T23:34:18Z")
I don’t really have a problem with free voter ID cards, and if a court in one state has decided to hold that the expense of obtaining valid ID constitutes a poll tax, then so be it, at least in that state. What I’m arguing against is the notion that people should be able to vote without without having to register or show ID at all, which was being advocated for at least a while in this thread, and probably for the very reasons I said: there are a lot of people who would vote Democratic but don’t want ID of any kind, and there are posters in this thread who would happily do away with proof of eligibility altogether as long as means more people voting their way. This of course would have the added benefit of not only picking up miscreant votes for the Dems but potentially millions of illegal immigrant votes too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/492 "2011-09-11T23:36:22Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Do you have a link that states that, or did I miss it in a previous one? The article I linked states the signs were already put up. [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/wis\_official\_to\_dmv\_employees\_dont\_offer\_people\_fr.php](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/wis_official_to_dmv_employees_dont_offer_people_fr.php) Depends when. I read that since the stories have come out about the “poll tax”, some DMV offices have quickly put some up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/493 "2011-09-11T23:40:46Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/494 "2011-09-11T23:44:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t really have a problem with free voter ID cards, and if a court in one state has decided to hold that the expense of obtaining valid ID constitutes a poll tax, then so be it, at least in that state. What I’m arguing against is the notion that people should be able to vote without without having to register or show ID at all, which was being advocated for at least a while in this thread, and probably for the very reasons I said: there are a lot of people who would vote Democratic but don’t want ID of any kind, and there are posters in this thread who would happily do away with proof of eligibility altogether as long as means more people voting their way. This of course would have the added benefit of not only picking up miscreant votes for the Dems but potentially millions of illegal immigrant votes too. Actually I take back my other post, teach me to post without reading all the posts:smack:. I’m not arguing against showing proof, I’m arguing against making proof a hardship. The way I see it, if the state controls proof, than those in power in the state can adjust how much of a hardship getting proof is. Meaning the ruling party can put a lot of DMVs in their districts, and close down ones near the other party’s. That’s very bad. They could also adjust their fees, and office wait times to discourage one economic class and encourage another. What I’m trying to argue is the state should have programs in place so that any eligible voter who wants to vote can without facing unequal hardship for it. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/495 "2011-09-11T23:45:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/wis\_official\_to\_dmv\_employees\_dont\_offer\_people\_fr.php](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/wis_official_to_dmv_employees_dont_offer_people_fr.php) > > Depends when. I read that since the stories have come out about the “poll tax”, some DMV offices have quickly put some up. My article is dated the seventh, same as yours, but states that signs _had been put up Wednesday_, but not in response to media reports. Who would even think such a thing is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/496 "2011-09-11T23:49:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t really have a problem with free voter ID cards, and if a court in one state has decided to hold that the expense of obtaining valid ID constitutes a poll tax, then so be it, at least in that state. What I’m arguing against is the notion that people should be able to vote without without having to register or show ID at all, which was being advocated for at least a while in this thread, and probably for the very reasons I said: there are a lot of people who would vote Democratic but don’t want ID of any kind, and there are posters in this thread who would happily do away with proof of eligibility altogether as long as means more people voting their way. This of course would have the added benefit of not only picking up miscreant votes for the Dems but potentially millions of illegal immigrant votes too. So wait. Republicans aren’t hoping to prevent people from voting by implimenting new voter ID laws, but democrats want to do away with them so they can get the votes of millions of ineligible voters including illegal immigrants and “miscreants?” And what the holy hell do you mean by miscreants and ne’er do wells? Are we really worried about Goofus and Dennis the menace voting? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/497 "2011-09-11T23:51:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t really have a problem with free voter ID cards, and if a court in one state has decided to hold that the expense of obtaining valid ID constitutes a poll tax, then so be it, at least in that state. What I’m arguing against is the notion that people should be able to vote without without having to register or show ID at all, which was being advocated for at least a while in this thread, and probably for the very reasons I said: there are a lot of people who would vote Democratic but don’t want ID of any kind, and there are posters in this thread who would happily do away with proof of eligibility altogether as long as means more people voting their way. This of course would have the added benefit of not only picking up miscreant votes for the Dems but potentially millions of illegal immigrant votes too. You are obliged to identify yourself as entitled to vote to the poll attendants (by whatever term they are called in your jurisdiction). To be required to produce a particular form of identification as the only acceptable way to identify yourself as having the franchise, that particular form of identification (a) must be reasonably easy for the average citizen to obtain, and (b) may not cost one red cent. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/498 "2011-09-12T00:26:03Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Actually I take back my other post, teach me to post without reading all the posts:smack:. I’m not arguing against showing proof, I’m arguing against making proof a hardship. > The way I see it, if the state controls proof, than those in power in the state can adjust how much of a hardship getting proof is. Meaning the ruling party can put a lot of DMVs in their districts, and close down ones near the other party’s. That’s very bad. They could also adjust their fees, and office wait times to discourage one economic class and encourage another. > > What I’m trying to argue is the state should have programs in place so that any eligible voter who wants to vote can without facing unequal hardship for it. I agree with everything in this post. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/499 "2011-09-12T01:22:59Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > My article is dated the seventh, same as yours, but states that signs _had been put up Wednesday_, but not in response to media reports. Who would even think such a thing is beyond me. Absolutely in response. The stories forced their hands. They had no intention of telling people they could get free IDs for voting. Does it follow logically that they would put up signs? They fired a worker for letting customers know they could get one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/500 "2011-09-12T13:49:46Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Because issues of voting and enfranchisement cut to the very heart of democracy, I think they should be viewed through an entirely different lens than just about anything else. If I propose some measure that statistically is likely to reduce voter turnout in a certain group of people by 5% or so, then a test which simply looks at the impact on any single individual, not on the group as a whole, is missing the forest for the trees. That’s great that YOU think that. But by what mechanism does your thought somehow translate into the standard the country must accept? > [@](#): > > First of all, who cares? That’s not the issue under discussion. You’re redirecting, and dodging the question of whether you personally approve (morally or ethically, not legally) of the actions actually being discussed in the thread. There’s a bunch of actions discussed in this thread. I approve, morally and ethically, of the Wisconsin voter ID law. What other actions would you like my reaction on? > [@](#): > > (1) actions of elected officials are different than actions of organizations, even organizations that receive public funds > (2) actions to encourage voting are different from actions to discourage voting > (3) more subtly, and I admit we’re getting into very hazy and subjective territory here, there is just no plausibility to the “oh, I’m so alarmed about potential identity-based voter fraud” story at all. On the other hand, it strikes me as quite plausible that “I think more people, particularly in traditionally disadvantaged communities, should register and vote” is a sentiment that someone could honestly have entirely independent of partisanship. Which of course means that someone could then plausibly PRETEND to hold that sentiment because it makes for a good cover story, yada yada yada. But, fundamentally, these voter fraud laws (and particularly things like restricting DMV hours in certain districts) fail the sniff test, ACORN doesn’t. (4) I don’t agree. There’s a great deal of plausibility about voter fraud alarm. The mechanism of voting has two components: there must be actual integrity of the vote, and there must be public confidence in the results of the vote. Even if I accept that the proposition that actual vote fraud is rare, measures that ensure public confidence in the results of the vote are independently valid precisely because they shore up public perception about the reliabvility of the result. The “alarm” you dismiss is real. People feel it. Their belief may not be rational, but public perception is key to the entire structure of elections. > [@](#): > > In any case, please answer the key question: do you personally approve (morally or ethically, not legally) of the actions actually being discussed in the thread? Again: I give two thumbs up to Wisconsin’s ID law. What other action do you want to know about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=26)