# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/41 "2011-09-05T01:36:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Just be honest. You support these laws because you hope it will stop blacks and Mexicans from voting. Let’s all be honest. Don’t insult our intelligence. If that was their intention then they’ve obviously failed miserably since I’m not aware of any downward trends in voting among either blacks or Hispanics since many states passed these laws. Have started voting in lower numbers in Georgia etc.? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/42 "2011-09-05T01:43:20Z")
Would failure make the effort any less despicable? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/43 "2011-09-05T01:47:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Everything is designed to suppress voting by people who are statistically more likely to vote Democratic. Poor people, minorities and college kids. Especially minorities. Those brown people are scaring the fuck out the GOP, what with their growing populations and their civil rights and everything. I’m not seeing that in the OP - the League of Women Voters? People who want to register at the last minute? Ex-felons? These folk are mostly poor and/or minorities and/or college kids? Also, what is up with 10% of people not having ID? I can see reasons for wanting most of these things done for reasons other than purely political, so I guess I don’t see why the OP thinks its to lower the Democratic voter base. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/44 "2011-09-05T01:58:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I could be wrong, but I’m almost 100% sure that everyone in Canada and Europe has to produce IDs in order to vote. You are wrong about [Canada](http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e). One option is photo ID, there are two other options including having someone vouch for you at the polling station or presenting other documents (bills, social insurance or healthcare card, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/45 "2011-09-05T02:10:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You really do think you have different rights then they do, don’t you? No, I also would have to present an ID to vote. That makes it fair, even though I already have one. Call the ACLU if you don’t like it. In fact, please make as big an issue of this as you have time for. It’ll solidify the reputation of the Democrats as the party of those who are markedly stupider than the cast of “Jersey Shore”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/46 "2011-09-05T02:11:13Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > You are wrong about [Canada](http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e). One option is photo ID, there are two other options including having someone vouch for you at the polling station or presenting other documents (bills, social insurance or healthcare card, etc.). So they still require that you provide proof. That’s more than any of the states I’ve voted in did. That said, I do think that some of the states requiring IDs do allow people to use things like rent receipts and utility bills. To me that strikes me as fine. Anyway, I’ve yet to see any evidence that since states put such laws into effect that voting rates have dropped so there seems little evidence of people being disenfranchised. I do think that if people really are upset about disenfranchisement they’re better off focusing on the disenfranchisement of felons. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/47 "2011-09-05T02:14:19Z")
Two related items: George Lakoff on Moral Politics: [George Lakoff: Moral Politics - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9R9MtkpqM) and Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult [http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779](http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/48 "2011-09-05T02:16:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of those other things are Constitutional rights. As far as I know, you still need to show ID to buy a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/49 "2011-09-05T02:19:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So they still require that you provide proof. That’s more than any of the states I’ve voted in did. > > That said, I do think that some of the states requiring IDs do allow people to use things like rent receipts and utility bills. > > To me that strikes me as fine. You are uninformed. Many states where these new requirements are being enacted no longer allow other documentation like rent receipts and utility bills, they require government issued photo ID, period. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/50 "2011-09-05T02:21:34Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > If you need and ID card to drive, or to buy cigarettes, or buy alcohol, or to engage in a whole host of other activities, why not also be required to have an ID card to vote? It only makes sense. > > Non-mentally challenged persons don’t have a problem with a law requiring you to show ID before being allowed to vote. The only reason I can think of why you would oppose having to show your ID if you want to vote is because you were, say, an illegal or something who didn’t have an ID… You are playing bait-and-switch here, whether pr not you intended to do so or realize you’re doing it. The idea that someone might have to be able to demonstrate that he or she is legally entitled to vote is only reasonable – although permitting the casting of a provisional ballot pending the checking of eligiblity is always possible. But note the difference between (a) requiring proof of eligibiliuty to vote, (b) requiriding proof of identity, (c) providing an ID card, and (d) providing a state-issued photo ID card. I can only speak to North Carolina practices (well, and in former New York ones) but a state ID card is issued by the State Department of Motor Vehicles only at certain locations, the nearest of which are 15 miles from my home. The ID costs $10. To the best of our county DSS’s knowledge, that $10 is not subsidized for low-income persons. Now, $10 is not a great deal, but it can be for a low-income person. And if you think that through, requiring presentation of a state-issued document it costs $10 to get is unconstitutional, whether they call it a poll tax receipt or a picture ID. (24th Amendment) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/51 "2011-09-05T02:28:57Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > In other words, the stalwart base of the Democratic Party is composed of people who can’t figure out how to get a photo ID. You idiots shouldn’t be running a pencil sharpener, let alone the country. Ahh so that woman in my example was an idiot? How about me if I didn’t have enough gas money to acquire the various documents needed for an ID? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/52 "2011-09-05T02:31:02Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > You are uninformed. Many states where these new requirements are being enacted no longer allow other documentation like rent receipts and utility bills, they require government issued photo ID, period. Er… that’s why I said “some” not all. Furthermore, when you say “many” instead of “all” or even “most” you seem to concede the fact that some of the states allow things like rent receipts and utility bills. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/53 "2011-09-05T02:41:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… that’s why I said “some” not all. > > Furthermore, when you say “many” instead of “all” or even “most” you seem to concede the fact that some of the states allow things like rent receipts and utility bills. Some is not enough. The trend of states adopting strict photo ID requirements needs to be reversed. **All** states should allow other reasonable options to government issued photo ID. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/54 "2011-09-05T02:49:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Ahh so that woman in my example was an idiot? > > How about me if I didn’t have enough gas money to acquire the various documents needed for an ID? You get a new birth certificate when you’re adopted, and it works just like an original, so I wonder whether there was some other problem she wasn’t revealing. If you don’t have the gas money to get your documents, how are you going to get to the polls? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/55 "2011-09-05T02:50:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you’re saying that you think we should run our voting stations on the honor system? We don’t run on the honor system. I’m not required to show ID at the polls (yet). I am, however, required to sign the register, and if my signature doesn’t match the one that’s already in the register, I can’t vote, and yes, the precinct election judge is required to check them. BTW, the signature that’s already in the register was created in the presence of a DMV clerk when I got my driver’s license renewed and updated my voter registration. That said, I have no fewer than four pieces of photo identification in my wallet at all times: my driver’s license, military spouse ID, student ID, and concealed carry permit. I’ve had all of them turned down at some time or another. My DL got turned down because I was visiting another state and didn’t have a license from that state. My military ID doesn’t really look like me anymore, so I can’t use it. My student ID was issued by a private university, albeit a fairly large and well-known university, so it’s not government-issued. My concealed carry permit generally isn’t accepted as positive ID and never has been. So my point is this: Even if a person has a photo ID, what guarantees will be in place to ensure that that ID will be accepted and the voter will be allowed to vote? > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > You get a new birth certificate when you’re adopted, and it works just like an original, so I wonder whether there was some other problem she wasn’t revealing. It’s not always that easy. Birth certificates are generally filed where the person was born, and if the adoptee doesn’t know that, may have a difficult time finding their birth certificate. > [@](#): > > If you don’t have the gas money to get your documents, how are you going to get to the polls? Because the polls may be within walking distance, while the DMV or Hall of Records (or wherever you need to get whatever documents you need) may be some distance away. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/56 "2011-09-05T02:53:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As already noted the US has a long history of voter fraud Totally false and ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/57 "2011-09-05T03:00:04Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Who are these people who can’t figure out how to get an ID? It’s not about knowing _how_ to get an ID, it’s about having the _resources_ to get an ID. First, there’s _knowing_ what documents you need. We can find that out with a quick Google. Someone who doesn’t have internet access can only find out by visiting a DMV (not practical or even possible if they’re aged, don’t drive, disabled, rural) or making phone calls. Then there’s getting identity documents if you don’t have them. If you were born in another state, the process of getting a birth certificate and a marriage certificate (and possibly divorce certificates and subsequent marriage certificates) when you’re not online is a flurry of long distance phone calls and forms that have to be mailed to you, mailed back, and then endless waiting. That’s presuming that it’s possible to get such certificates at a distance at all; in many counties, a Pennsylvania marriage certificate can _only_ be requested in person at the county courthouse. And then there’s the issue of cost. Those certificates can cost up to $17 each, depending on what state they’re from, plus postage. Marriage certificates are only necessary for women, not men, because of name changes, and women are considerably more likely to live in poverty, especially as senior citizens, but are the ones who have to pay twice as much to get basic documents that prove who they are. If you’re already making a choice between eating and taking needed medication, where are you going to find an extra $34 (plus postage and long distance phone charges) to get a photo ID you don’t otherwise need, just to be able to exercise your constitutionally guaranteed right to vote? Then you have to official proof of address. We know that if you live in someone else’s home and do not work, the number of documents that are available to you are already vastly limited to begin with. We’ve seen [front line DMV employees trying to reject documents that fulfill all necessary criteria for proving address, based on specious grounds](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0G01zbHGM8). If you’re a senior citizen who lives with a relative and you never held formal employment (like all of the women who were homemakers or were domestics) you may actually not be able to prove your residence to the satisfaction of certain states, like South Carolina. You’ll live there, but you can’t prove it. This is not an issue of ignorance or laziness. This is an issue of fundamental fairness; until the process of getting supporting documentation is both streamlined and _free_, and until state-issued ID cards are readily available in all communities and _free_, voter ID schemes, which do not address any actual provable problem, are tantamount to a poll tax, one which will present an insurmountable barrier to voting for many of the poor, for the elderly, for the disabled, for women and will have a deeper impact in minority communities. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/58 "2011-09-05T03:02:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Ever since Republicans captured the majority in a number of state legislatures last November, they have systematically attempted to make it more difficult to vote: by onerous voter ID requirements (in Wisconsin, Republicans have legislated photo IDs while simultaneously shutting Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) offices in Democratic constituencies while at the same time lengthening the hours of operation of DMV offices in GOP constituencies); by narrowing registration periods; and by residency requirements that may disenfranchise university students. This, by a former GOP worker: > **[Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult](https://truthout.org/articles/goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult/)** > > (Photo: Carolyn Tiry / Flickr) Barbara Stanwyck: “We're both rotten!” Fred MacMurray: “Yeah – only you're a little more rotten.” -”Double Indemnity” (1944)… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/59 "2011-09-05T03:26:19Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Some is not enough. The trend of states adopting strict photo ID requirements needs to be reversed. **All** states should allow other reasonable options to government issued photo ID. Do you agree? I don’t see why not. That said, as far as I know voting rates haven’t dropped since such laws have been put in place so I have yet to see why so many are so hot and bothered over this and don’t give two shits over barring felons from voting which disenfranchises millions if not tens of millions. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/60 "2011-09-05T03:31:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Totally false and ignorant. Oh God I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. Talk to people in Chicago or Boston(to use two obvious examples) who can tell you stories about voter fraud. Like I said the phrase “Vote early, vote often, and vote Democratic” didn’t come out of nowhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=4)