# I Pit GOP "voting reform" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180 "2011-09-04T19:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/141 "2011-09-05T23:51:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do all radial left wing folk act like you and **septimus**? “God dammit, don’t you DARE question my beliefs!!!” Nah, the radial ones mostly go around in circles. The radical ones, however, act _exactly_ like that! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/142 "2011-09-05T23:53:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, the radial ones mostly go around in circles. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/143 "2011-09-06T00:02:35Z")
Radiant leftys just shine on. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/144 "2011-09-06T00:05:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Why is it not? > > Look, I’ve no problem with not allowing felons who are currently in prison to vote. I’ve a bit greater of a problem with not allowing felons on parole from prison to vote, but not one that’s insurmountable. > > I’ve a tremendous problem with not allowing a felon to vote who has paid his price to society, and who is working his way back into society, and into acceptance by society, and into his own acceptance that he is a member of society. Not allowing him to vote is bullshit. It’s simply saying, “We’ll never accept you back.” It’s not very encouraging. Frank-I unequivocally agree that felons \*\*who have paid their debt to society \*\*should be allowed to vote! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/145 "2011-09-06T00:12:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Radiant leftys just shine on. Don’t we all shine on? Like the moon, and the stars, and the sun? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/146 "2011-09-06T00:13:20Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I suppose someone could wander in at random, armed with your name, and address, and squiggle, and vote for you. That’s hardly trivial. Why is that so hard to believe? There’s a big book of names and addresses that is delivered to your doorstep every year. And looking up the polling place connected with that address requires a five-second search on the Board of Elections site. And if you have their birthday, it’ll even tell you if the name connected with that address is registered to vote. The signature could be a problem, but only after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/147 "2011-09-06T00:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t we all shine on? Like the moon, and the stars, and the sun? Groovy! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/148 "2011-09-06T00:17:10Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Why is that so hard to believe? There’s a big book of names and addresses that is delivered to your doorstep every year. And looking up the polling place connected with that address requires a five-second search on the Board of Elections site. And if you have their birthday, it’ll even tell you if the name connected with that address is registered to vote. > > The signature could be a problem, but only after the fact. If you’re taking the names off of registered voters, you’re gonna get busted. Because sooner or later you will try to vote using the name of somebody who _already_ voted. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/149 "2011-09-06T00:22:25Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Why is that so hard to believe? There’s a big book of names and addresses that is delivered to your doorstep every year. And looking up the polling place connected with that address requires a five-second search on the Board of Elections site. And if you have their birthday, it’ll even tell you if the name connected with that address is registered to vote. > > The signature could be a problem, but only after the fact. Yes, and after the fact would cause that person to be convicted. They’d have to depend on a) getting there before you did, or b) your not getting there at all, and, c)if/when you did get there to vote, your not remembering that you didn’t already vote. How is a person, a group, or a party going to trivially cause that scenario to be voter fraud across the state of New York? Seems like a lot of chancy work to me. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/150 "2011-09-06T00:22:41Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > This is a tangent to the discussion at hand, but in the spirit of fighting ignorance… > > How is it possible for 10% of grown-ass people in a civilized country to not have any way of proving who they are? Because this is the U.S. with overlapping bureaucracies from state to state that all handle their own petty little fiefdoms and won’t interact with one another, putting a high burden on citizens who are already marginalized: the poor, the infirm, those living deeply rurally, those with low employment and housing stability. If getting ID was handled by the same government agency that issues vital records (birth, marriage, divorce and death records), if there was only a limited, materials-only cost for address change updates, and if getting new ID when moving from state to state was as simple as showing your old ID and proof of your new address, far fewer people would not have a current valid ID. But we’ve separated all of these systems, non-driver ID is typically handled by the same agency that issues driver’s licenses, and they don’t talk to vital records, even though this is all from the state. We put price tags on the retrieval of records and the creation of little plastic cards well above and beyond their actual cost in materials or manpower as a means of meeting governmental overhead. We overcomplicate the system, then blame people for not being able to financially or physically able to deal with those complications. > [@curlcoat](#): > > So, what you are saying here is you _think it is likely_ that those groups are predominately Democrat and your post is your cite? You want a cite that racial minorities and young people vote overwhelmingly for Democrats? Okay, [blacks vote for democrats](http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/blacks-and-the-democratic-party/), [Hispanics vote democrat](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-11-06-hispanics_N.htm), [young people vote democrat](http://www.civicyouth.org/quick-facts/youth-voting/). > [@](#): > > Why would the League of Women Votes be registering mostly Democrats? Because their voter registration drives are typically in urban environments to reach those who wouldn’t be registered otherwise (higher numbers of non-drivers, so not reached via Motor Voter laws, less personalized local politics that aren’t an enticement to participation, etc.) and urban voters are mostly Democrats. Any look at the blue-red map from the last 10 elections makes that clear. > [@](#): > > Why is it a good idea to register people to vote the day of the election? Because it allows for greater participation. Given that voting is a constitutionally guaranteed right, any barrier to participation like early registration deadlines – as great as 60 days in some states – needs to have some practical rationale. Improved technology no longer demands a long lead time to process paperwork and allow for mailing of registration documents. Each registration no longer needs to be entered by hand into a master roster book and then into a precinct roster and then a registration card typed on a typewriter. Information entered once can instantly generate all necessary records. > [@](#): > > Why is it a good idea to allow felons to vote? Because there’s no legitimate reason why a person who has served their sentence and is now released and meant to be re-integrating into society should continue to be denied a fundamental Constitutional right. It doesn’t serve any legitimate purpose for corrections or security, and it has a punitive effect on entire communities, when a substantial number of community members are denied a voice in determining the course of the community. > [@](#): > > Why would anyone assume felons are largely Democrat? Because felons tend to be poor, both before and after their incarcerations, and the poor are another demographic that is solidly Democrat. > [@](#): > > Why do 25% of AA’s not have ID? [ul] [li] Financial barriers to gathering necessary documents like birth and marriage records.[/li][li]Access barriers to gathering necessary documents, i.e. no internet access; records that can’t be requested online _or_ by phone; the cost of long-distance phone calls for out of state records; government offices only open 9-5 on weekdays, ID centers with limited evening/weekend hours; ID centers not on public transport routes (because they’re linked with the DMV and presume car access).[/li][li]Employment instability; if a person is not working when ID expires, they may not have the money nor see the need to promptly renew it.[/li][li]Housing instability; if a person moves every year or two, an unexpired ID is nonetheless rendered invalid by the change of address.[/li][li]Inability to prove residence to the satisfaction of the state; particularly at issue for those without formal employment, the elderly, people with disabilities and anyone who lives in a home not their own so bills and lease/mortgage documents aren’t in their own name.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/151 "2011-09-06T00:24:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Why is it not? > Look, I’ve no problem with not allowing felons who are currently in prison to vote. I’ve a bit greater of a problem with not allowing felons on parole from prison to vote, but not one that’s insurmountable. > > I’ve a tremendous problem with not allowing a felon to vote who has paid his price to society, and who is working his way back into society, and into acceptance by society, and into his own acceptance that he is a member of society. Not allowing him to vote is bullshit. It’s simply saying, “We’ll never accept you back.” It’s not very encouraging. Felons end up losing the right to serve on a jury and possess guns, plus I believe they can’t run for office - should they be allowed to do these things too? I guess it would depend on the felony but I think we have enough folks with a bunch of strikes against them voting, without including those who lie, cheat, murder, whatever. > [@Frank](#): > > As far as I can tell, that number appeared out of nowhere. Let’s assume it’s accurate . . . > > No car. No bank account. No need to travel out of the country. Old enough that they don’t get carded for smokes or liquor, if they buy either. Anything else? I understand how it can happen that someone might not have ID, but 25% of a large population? I think that number was just made up as well. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, the radial ones mostly go around in circles. The radical ones, however, act _exactly_ like that! Snerk. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/152 "2011-09-06T00:30:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > … I think we have enough folks with a bunch of strikes against them voting, … For instance? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/153 "2011-09-06T00:46:36Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > A birth certificate in the state of KY costs $10 and has to either be picked up in Frankfort–a significant trip for most people in the state–or ordered by mail, which can take up to 30 days. Let’s say you’re homeless, but you believe in democracy so much you scrape together the $10 plus postage and the cost of a money order and send it off to the Office of Vital Statistics in Frankfort. Where are you going to tell them to mail it? $10 dollars is too fucking much. 50¢ is too fucking much. Unless or until the USA requires citizens to have a photo ID, requiring one to vote is about as undemocratic as you can get. And any cost incurred in getting one is the same as a poll tax (too bad we have an extreme right wing dominated Supreme Court). Maybe if the right could show evidence of voter fraud that this would correct, maybe there’s a defense of this. A weak one, but if there was a problem to fix, maybe you consider this. But there’s no evidence of voter fraud. The sad thing is that I’m not surprised the GOP has sunk so low. It’s even sadder that people have no problem taking votes away from people who don’t have the smarts/resources to meet the artificial voting standards. Despite their constitutional right to have a say in who governs them. One of our most sacred rights (as it should be). The right to vote should never be harder to get than the right to be a citizen. Anyone who supports policies like that are as about as un-American as you can get. And yet, they’re probably the most rah-rah types out there.. What a fundamental disconnect. But those types are always more about tribalism than about understanding what really makes our country great. Deplorable. If the media was (were?) truly liberal, this would be a huge story. But, no…DEFICIT!!! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/154 "2011-09-06T00:51:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A lot of the resistance is because required national identification papers evoke some highly distasteful historical precedents. This is the ridiculous thing. There appears to be a strong view that people should be entitled to claim things without demonstrating that they are entitled to them. I’m in the UK, and have watched with disbelief the objections to national ID cards. There is, quite frankly, no downside to them (apart from cost), and massive benefits. The benefits being that we can be sure that anyone who votes, works, or claims benefits here is entitled to do so. It would also remove any issues of whether ID is valid in other situations, such as buying alcohol or other age-restricted products, or if the police need to verify your identity. The cost need not be high - if a 10-year passport can be obtained for less than £80, an ID card should be somewhat less. For people claiming that such a cost is to high, it’s less that 16p a week. That’s a frankly trivial amount.\* The big problem seems to be the difficulty of obtaining ID in the US, and I agree that’s a massive problem. A national ID scheme would alleviate this, and some sort of spread payment scheme would remove ant financial issues. \*I don’t know if it’s been suggested that ID cards could be paid for over time. It should be. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/155 "2011-09-06T00:55:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There is, quite frankly, no downside to them (apart from cost), … Huh. No downside? Gosh, it seems that everyone should be jumping all over something with no downside. I wonder why they aren’t, in either your country or mine. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/156 "2011-09-06T00:57:50Z")
The US does have _state_-issued photo ID’s - either driver’s licenses or non-license cards provided by the state motor vehicle departments (because they’re equipped for it). We do, of course, have passports, because they’re virtually required to travel outside (which a far smaller percentage of us do than Europeans, due to geography). But we also have a Constitutional prohibition, reinforced by firm Supreme Court rulings, against poll taxes - meaning a payment of \*any \*kind required to cast a vote. That’s another distasteful historical precedent for us, based in the era of Jim Crow laws. Not only would an ID for voting have to be free, it (well, arguably, but very reasonably) could not require any ancillary expense to be involved to get one, either. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/157 "2011-09-06T01:16:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But we also have a Constitutional prohibition, reinforced by firm Supreme Court rulings, against poll taxes - meaning a payment of \*any \*kind required to cast a vote. That’s another distasteful historical precedent for us, based in the era of Jim Crow laws. Not only would an ID for voting have to be free, it (well, arguably, but very reasonably) could not require any ancillary expense to be involved to get one, either. What about transportation to the polls? Should that be provided free of charge? If not, then isn’t that a prohibited poll tax? What about the calories consumed by walking from the parking lot into the voting booth and back out? Those aren’t free. Should the government issue the voter a stipend for food to replenish those calories? What about lost time? Surely our time is valuable, and that time spent voting COULD have been spent working, with the family, or whatever else we wanted. If an attorney usually bills $200/hr, and it takes him 1/2 hour to vote, shouldn’t the government pay him $100? If not, aren’t you financially punishing him for voting? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/158 "2011-09-06T01:18:08Z")
We could make this really easy. Your local community organizer goes to the home of Mr. M. Mouse. Knocks. Identifies self, asks Mr Mouse if he is registered to vote, and would he like to be. If Mr Mouse says yes, the ACORNista takes a digital photo of Mr. Mouse. One copy is affixed to his voter ID card, which is sent to the address he prefers. Mr. Mouse is now registered to vote. He can present his voter ID with photo at the polls. If he should lose his card, a poll worker with a laptop can access his voter ID photo from the database and confirm his identity, and his registration. Maybe a password. Nothing to it. Photo IDs at no cost to the voter, security, voter fraud plague neutralized, impalement by unicorn drops dramatically. And a whole bunch of people are more iikely to vote, which is swell! Suppose you presented such a plan in your state legislature. Simple, cheap. Any guesses as to which political party will oppose such a plan? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/159 "2011-09-06T01:24:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > How many young people in college don’t have a photo ID of some kind? Probably not many - but one of the features of voter ID laws is they [almost?] invariably specify that college-issued IDs don’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180/160 "2011-09-06T01:24:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Huh. No downside? Gosh, it seems that everyone should be jumping all over something with no downside. I wonder why they aren’t, in either your country or mine. Because they are idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gop-voting-reform/595180.md?page=9)