# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/221 "2013-07-09T18:38:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if you were to learn that some women who were set on abortion changed their minds after this kind of description and demonstration, would you revise your opinion? No, because I still would oppose it for the reason that government should not be able to mandate medical procedures that are deemed unwanted and unnecessary by both the patient and the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/222 "2013-07-09T18:40:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, because I still would oppose it for the reason that government should not be able to mandate medical procedures that are deemed unwanted and unnecessary by both the patient and the doctor. Well, unfortunately, the legislature and the governor disagree with you. Me, also. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/223 "2013-07-09T18:44:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They’re not wrong. They’re just not applying any consideration to the unborn child’s medical interests. Why do you think the government is better qualified than the mother and her doctor to determine the medical interests of the unborn child? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/224 "2013-07-09T18:44:07Z")
If I only had a dollar for every time I’ve heard you sing “It’s the law, you’re stuck with it, neener-neener”…scratch that, six monthis of hookers, blow, and high priced scotch would probably kill me. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/225 "2013-07-09T18:48:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is the burden on me? It’s a law, passed by the legislature and signed by the governor. Why should I have to justify it to you? You don’t. I merely make note that it is the opposite of what I have come to expect from you based on watching your debates on other issues. I guess we all have at least one blind spot where ideology overtakes practicality. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/226 "2013-07-09T18:54:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I – and our general system of law – hold that truth to be self-evident. This is the same system of law that allows use of deadly force to protect mere property, right? ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/227 "2013-07-09T19:07:41Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Where did you come up with this notion that abortion is murder and that a fetus is a child? > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s simply my view. > > But since there is support for this view amongst many others, including the legislative members, it’s a view that carries some significance. Except under the law, of course. Abortion is a legal procedure and getting an abortion has been declared Constitutional by our highest court. It is not, legally, murder. You’re a lawyer with no respect for the law. Just another willfully ignorant theocrat. Besides, your bible says when a person receives a soul, i.e., becomes a human: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7. Without the breath of life, i.e., pre-birth, it’s either not living, or not a soul, or both. There’s your theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/228 "2013-07-09T19:18:56Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Besides, your bible says when a person receives a soul, i.e., becomes a human: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Genesis 2:7. Without the breath of life, i.e., pre-birth, it’s either not living, or not a soul, or both. There’s your theocracy. Good point. The Catholic church for years would not let miscarried fetuses be buried in the same cemetary as their baptized relatives- they were unbaptized and not eligible for burial there. Even today the funeral for an unbaptized stillbirth is different than for a infant that dies after birth. Yet the church insists that we treat fetuses as equal (or even superior) to their mother otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/229 "2013-07-09T19:46:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I – and our general system of law – hold that truth to be self-evident. > > Yes. The terms “conception” and “fertilization” are essentially synonymous. The moment of first mitosis following the union of sperm and oocyte. Self-evident; that’s it? You’re not even willing to address your premise? Isn’t that… All of your special zygotes that never develop into a child is a little troubling to me, suddenly your “bright line” seems a mite dim. Thinking that most human life sees its end as a dried up little blot on a woman’s cotton comfort panel leaves me with that not so special feeling. This special little boy from a special little town is going to need a little special ‘splainin’ on both of these. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/230 "2013-07-09T19:47:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because nothing else makes sense to me. We start from the proposition that there is something uniquely valuable about human life. Humans are not simply the animal that happens to be at the top of the food chain at present. Humans are something special. > > For this reason, laws protect humans, much more strongly than they protect other animals. > > So when does a human come into existence? > > If it’s not at the moment of conception, I cannot imagine a principled bright-line rule for any other moment. If it’s the moment of conception then you destroy your own argument, because there _is_ nothing particularly special about a “human life” at that point. It’s just a _cell._ If a “human life” is what starts at conception, then a “human life” is less valuable than the _multiple_ cells I kill when I scratch myself. You aren’t arguing for an embryo being especially valuable, you are arguing for _human life_ being worthless. > [@Bricker](#): > > Birth, of course, is reasonably bright-line, but it’s not principled, because it’s clear to me that a baby two days before birth is still a fully-formed human being, deserving of the law’s protection. Of course it’s principled, that’s the point it isn’t inside the woman’s body and dependent upon it. And what makes you assume that there has to be a bright line in the first place? Human biology isn’t required to be legally convenient. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/231 "2013-07-09T19:54:58Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > …This special little boy from a special little town is going to need a little special ‘splainin’ on both of these. Its because you’re special, dear. That’s why you get that special, exclusive little bus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/232 "2013-07-09T20:00:56Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Self-evident; that’s it? You’re not even willing to address your premise? Isn’t that… Are you aware of any western country whose system of laws does not start with that premise? Really? You are not willing to accept that as a premise? Now, we can argue about what constitutes “human life”, but if our legal system doesn’t agree that human life is “special”, then you wouldn’t be able to eat anything that was ever alive. > [@](#): > > All of your special zygotes that never develop into a child is a little troubling to me, suddenly your “bright line” seems a mite dim. Thinking that most human life sees its end as a dried up little blot on a woman’s cotton comfort panel leaves me with that not so special feeling. > > This special little boy from a special little town is going to need a little special ‘splainin’ on both of these. Humans die all the time of natural causes. There is nothing remarkably different about miscarriages. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/233 "2013-07-09T20:09:57Z")
Well, OK, what makes an abortion dreadful and a miscarriage a natural function? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/234 "2013-07-09T20:16:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK, what makes an abortion dreadful and a miscarriage a natural function? What makes murder dreadful and dying of old age a natural function? Surely that is something you already know, so I’m not sure why you ask. I was certainly not implying that miscarriages were non-events, only that they were not remarkably different from deaths we see everyday of humans all over the globe, by natural causes or accidents. An event for human sadness, but not anything the law normally needs to address. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/235 "2013-07-09T20:17:33Z")
**Bricker,** if we were to show you statistics that showed a significant increase in dead and seriously injured mothers due to botched black market abortions when abortion is outlawed, would you reconsider your opinion on abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/236 "2013-07-09T20:21:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What makes murder dreadful and dying of old age a natural function? Choice. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/237 "2013-07-09T20:21:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. In your example, the woman is deciding not to know. She’s deciding she doesn’t need to know. Are you okay with being forced to undergo unnecessary medical procedures and having your time wasted by government order, to serve a purpose you don’t care about? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/238 "2013-07-09T20:22:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Bricker,** if we were to show you statistics that showed a significant increase in dead and seriously injured mothers due to botched black market abortions when abortion is outlawed, would you reconsider your opinion on abortion? Yes. But bear in mind that I’d want to see them with today’s technology in use, not a recitation of what might have happened in the fifties with sixty-year-old medical knowledge in play. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/239 "2013-07-09T20:24:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > She’s deciding she doesn’t need to know. Are you okay with being forced to undergo unnecessary medical procedures and having your time wasted by government order, to serve a purpose you don’t care about? It depends on the purpose. If I were an asymptomatic carrier of some disease, I might regard tests and prophylactic measures as meaningless, but there would certainly be good reason for the government to undertake them anyway. So, yes, I’m OK with that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/240 "2013-07-09T20:26:46Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Self-evident; that’s it? You’re not even willing to address your premise? Isn’t that… Good grief, look around. A system of thought that did not regard humans as special would either starve to death in short order or be brutal in nature. If you cannot see the basic assumption that humans are a special case woven into the very fabric of our society, I cannot explain it further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=13)