# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/381 "2013-07-12T21:16:14Z")
I get the part about irrational and unreasonable beliefs being roughly equal. That the other guy’s irrational notions are just as good as mine. They aren’t, of course, but I’m willing to pretend. What I don’t get is why a minority gets to impose their preferred nonsense on everybody else. Seems to me there’s a link missing in that chain of steel logic. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/382 "2013-07-12T21:32:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think we are all united in disapproval of unnecessary genuflecting. > > Anyone not in on that? People who have had abortions are 37% more likely to genuflect correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/383 "2013-07-12T21:35:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That may be – but the fact that it isn’t so destroys the argument that it isn’t so. True? I’ll need clarification before I can decide whether I can decide. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/384 "2013-07-12T21:40:16Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > People who have had abortions are 37% more likely to genuflect correctly. Do they also bow their heads with great respect? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/385 "2013-07-12T22:07:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I get the part about irrational and unreasonable beliefs being roughly equal. That the other guy’s irrational notions are just as good as mine. They aren’t, of course, but I’m willing to pretend. What I don’t get is why a minority gets to impose their preferred nonsense on everybody else. Seems to me there’s a link missing in that chain of steel logic. Which minority are we talking about in this case? IOW, is the law in question being “imposed” by a minority? Did it not pass the legislature, which was voted in by the majority of the people? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/386 "2013-07-12T22:17:10Z")
Have you any reason to believe that these laws represent the values and preferences of a majority of the citizens? And if not, does legislation have some magic mambo that makes the unjust just? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/387 "2013-07-12T23:21:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I get the part about irrational and unreasonable beliefs being roughly equal. That the other guy’s irrational notions are just as good as mine. They aren’t, of course, but I’m willing to pretend. What I don’t get is why a minority gets to impose their preferred nonsense on everybody else. Seems to me there’s a link missing in that chain of steel logic. You know how laws get written, right? And when the minority favors YOUR view, I might add, you suddenly develop a deep and abiding distaste for the tyranny of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/388 "2013-07-13T01:26:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Have you any reason to believe that these laws represent the values and preferences of a majority of the citizens? And if not, does legislation have some magic mambo that makes the unjust just? Yes, I do: When the legislators who were duly elected by the citizens pass a certain law. When they overstep their bounds, they subject themselves to being kicked out, like the bums they are, and replaced with new Legiscritters who can then correct the error. We can watch this play out over the next few years. There is, of course, no guarantee that the sitting Legiscritters will always get everything right at exactly the right time, but if you have a better way of ensuring that, I’d be eager to hear it. We could, for example, try direct democracy, but I fear for my Muslim friends if we ever adopted that system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/389 "2013-07-13T02:30:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know how laws get written, right? > > And when the minority favors YOUR view, I might add, you suddenly develop a deep and abiding distaste for the tyranny of the majority. **Bricker** , we talked about his, and you agreed: you only get to play the “liberal hypocrisy” card once per thread. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/390 "2013-07-13T11:49:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which minority are we talking about in this case? IOW, is the law in question being “imposed” by a minority? Did it not pass the legislature, which was voted in by the majority of the people? Not necessarily, thanks to gerrymandering. A majority can be, and were, elected to congress with a minority of votes. See e.g., [Republicans Win Congress as Democrats Get Most Votes](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-19/republicans-win-congress-as-democrats-get-most-votes.html) Sometimes the race is fixed and we get idiot legislation of which the majority of voter do not approve or support. See e.g. [Poll: Majority Supports Failed Senate Gun Control Bill](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/29/poll-majority-supports-failed-senate-gun-control-bill) So, yes, a law can be imposed on a majority by a minority, and I think we will see a backlash against the TP republicans in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/391 "2013-07-13T13:57:01Z")
Well, now, just a second there, **legalsnugs**. I, for one, am grateful for **John’s** willingness to take the time to explain the rudiments of legislation for me, even if I find the patronizing condescension a bit grating. OK, a lot. But I am going to peacefully assemble a red dress of grievances, just like it says. Though **John** might look better in it, I hear he has the legs for it and totally rocks a little black cocktail dress with a string of pearls. Still, its generous of smart people to help out a poor ol’ ignorant country boy like me. Though I advise people who are inclined to pat me on the head to count their fingers when they are done, I can be a bit surly sometimes… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/392 "2013-07-13T14:25:00Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Not necessarily, thanks to gerrymandering. A majority can be, and were, elected to congress with a minority of votes. See e.g., [Republicans Win Congress as Democrats Get Most Votes](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-19/republicans-win-congress-as-democrats-get-most-votes.html) > > Sometimes the race is fixed and we get idiot legislation of which the majority of voter do not approve or support. See e.g. [Poll: Majority Supports Failed Senate Gun Control Bill](http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/29/poll-majority-supports-failed-senate-gun-control-bill) > > So, yes, a law can be imposed on a majority by a minority, and I think we will see a backlash against the TP republicans in 2014. My post said “in this case”, not “in some hypothetical case”. I also said “duly elected”, and like or not, gerrymandering is often legal and so, “duly” is an important operative word here. We elect legislators knowing they may or may not follow the will of the people on each and every issue. This is a feature, not a bug, especially since we can kick them out in the next election cycle if they stray too far off the desired path. The alternative, that they always represent the precise will of the people at any point in time is a terrifying thought, especially since we are talking about minorities here. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/393 "2013-07-13T15:33:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a completely separate argument. Lobohan’s “argument” was that I was “…trying to make this country into a Catholic wonderland.” But the precise same behavior arises from some Jews, some Muslims, some Buddhists, some [Mormons](http://mormon.org/faq/church-position-on-abortion), and some atheists. It’s absolutely unsupportable to accuse each of them of trying to create a Catholic wonderland. > > The problem with debating so many people is that when someone’s poor argument is exposed, rather than admit their error, they simply slink back, say nothing, and allow the next person to step up, never admitting that any flaw in their argument ever existed. > > So how about we all settle this one first. **Lobohan** was wrong when he accused me of trying to pass Catholic laws and create a Catholic wonderland. The pro-life position derives not from Catholic commands but from a basic belief in the value of human life: one shared by some Jews, some Muslims, some Buddhists, some Mormons, and some atheists, among others. > > Do you agree that **Lobohan** ’s argument was flawed? You are supporting laws that make others live by Catholic rules. That specific rules are also shared by other (very similar) religions is besides the point. If you want to enforce the eating of God-Berries, because your God, Larry, says so. That’s shitty. If some other guy’s God, Dennis, also wants people to eat God-Berries that guy would be shitty if he tried to enforce it. The two of you trying to foist your religious beliefs in eating God-Berries on others means you’re both assholes, not suddenly reasonable, because your Larry Worship and his Dennis Worship overlap at this point. If a third group of atheists like God-Berries because they taste awesome, and want to force others to eat them to, that’s shitty. Each is undertaking the same shitty act for different reasons. Surely someone able to limp through law-school, like yourself can understand that the same action can have different motives, right? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/394 "2013-07-13T15:37:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But what if you were to learn that, say, 30% of women seeing the ultrasound results decided not to have an abortion? Wouldn’t that indicate that it’s NOT simply sexist bullshit – that the ultrasound information is enough to change minds? If I stood out in front of a gunstore with bleeding child that was shot in the face, and I screamed at the people who entered, I might drop gun sales a tick too. Berating and terrorizing women will get some to do as you say. You’re still a shit-head for doing it even if it is effective. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/395 "2013-07-13T15:43:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I could say that the rule prohibiting drowning a five-minute old infant, if we see that the infant is born with Down’s syndrome, is ALSO based on feelings and beliefs rather than science. True? > > “Indecent exposure” laws? Laws against adult incest? Laws against beastility? > > All based on feelings and beliefs. Indecent exposure is something where you are changing someone else’s day. You, or any other gray-haired biddies fretting about all the souls being lost to the abortionist’s hook, aren’t impacted in the slightest by an abortion happening. You are deciding to be outraged because it goes against some mythology your parents brainwashed you into believing. Not because it is making your day any shittier. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/396 "2013-07-13T15:50:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Actually, they do, and actually it isn’t, respectively. Can a political stance be “un-America” if the majority of Americans hold that stance? Not abortion, but look at prayer in school or teaching creationism and evolution together. Or, look at the number of American who would not vote for an atheist for president. We are first and foremost a representative democracy, and if the majority of Americans want “x” and can use the proper channels to achieve “x”, then talking about what rights they have is beside the point. Their most fundamental right is to democratically choose what their government can and cannot do. > > Our government is not supposed to support any particular religion or religious views, in general. However, that is entirely different than saying the citizens should not use religion as one influential factor guiding their political stance on any given issue. As a non-believer myself, I wish they wouldn’t, but I’m not going to be so arrogant as to say they are un-American for doing so. I beg to differ. The founders set America up with the idea that equality and freedom from religious oppression were big deals. Certainly America could vote itself into a Muslim theocracy and become the new seat of the Caliphate if enough citizens wanted it to, but at that point, I’d side with Magellan and say that it changes the meaning of the word substantively. It would still be called America, but you’d have to make a bunch of statements in historical texts about, pre-Caliphate America and so on. So at the least advocating religious laws would be un-TheCurrentVersionofAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/397 "2013-07-13T15:59:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am a strict absolutist. That doesn’t mean I value a unborn child OVER a mother, any more than the reverse. In that case, the child had effectively zero chance to live, either way. The mother had a chance to live one way. That’s the way that should be taken. And it’s important to remember the intent that follows that decision: you never intend to kill the unborn child. You intend to save the mother. If the only way to save the mother involves the certain death of the child that will probably die anyway, then that’s the way to take… but the intent is always to save, not to kill. Well…the definition of absolutism generally means that no exceptions are allowed, hence my assumptions that you’re not an absolutist after all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/398 "2013-07-13T16:03:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I beg to differ. The founders set America up with the idea that equality and freedom from religious oppression were big deals. Certainly America could vote itself into a Muslim theocracy and become the new seat of the Caliphate if enough citizens wanted it to, but at that point, I’d side with Magellan and say that it changes the meaning of the word substantively. > > It would still be called America, but you’d have to make a bunch of statements in historical texts about, pre-Caliphate America and so on. So at the least advocating religious laws would be un-TheCurrentVersionofAmerican. If that is the basis by which we judge things to be unAmerican, then ending slavery was unAmerican. The Founders set America up with the idea that equality and freedom did not extend to non-Europeans. Besides, many of The Founders were quite OK with states having established religions, and some did for decades after the constitution was ratified. But I have to say I’m quite surprised to see you hold such conservative views. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/399 "2013-07-13T16:08:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I stood out in front of a gunstore with bleeding child that was shot in the face, and I screamed at the people who entered, I might drop gun sales a tick too. That’s awesome. A bill that would require gun purchasers to listen to the 911 call from the kid who shot his sister by mistake and look at pictures from the Newtown and Aurora massacres. Conservatives couldn’t possibly object, could they? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/400 "2013-07-13T16:20:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If that is the basis by which we judge things to be unAmerican, then ending slavery was unAmerican. The Founders set America up with the idea that equality and freedom did not extend to non-Europeans. Besides, many of The Founders were quite OK with states having established religions, and some did for decades after the constitution was ratified. I would suggest that _freedom from religious dominance_ is more of a founding value of America, than _the continuation of slavery_. > [@](#): > > But I have to say I’m quite surprised to see you hold such conservative views. Nobody gets me, I’m the wind, baby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=21)