# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/401 "2013-07-13T16:31:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The soul isn’t the issue. > > I do believe in a soul, of course. But that’s not what drives my position on abortion, and I don’t know if I can say definitively when a soul becomes part of a developing child. I’m pretty sure it’s NOT at the moment of conception. In fact, I think I can inductively prove it. > > Consider identical twins. We assume for the purposes of this discussion that identical twins have separate souls, yes? Yet the first mitosis of the sperm and oocyte is the one that produces the unique genetic mix, the unique human, of which I spoke. But those cells, and the cells from the next division at least, are totipotent, and if split at that stage will produce two genetically identical humans. Or, more rarely, three. Or much more rarely, four. So it’s clear (to me, anyway) that one soul doesn’t arrive at the moment of fecundity because that zygote might end up being more than one person. > > I don’t discount the importance of a soul, by any means. The soul is what makes us like God: immortal, and made in his image and likeness. > > But the soul has little to do with my abortion stance. So the soul isn’t why you dislike abortion, and here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462669&postcount=329](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462669&postcount=329) You said: > [@Bricker](#): > > Because I don’t agree that a functioning brain is the sine qua non of humanity. So what is it counselor? It’s not the brain, it’s not the soul, so why is killing a fetus bad, exactly? Human DNA? If so, can we excise cancerous tumors? They have DNA and no brain and no soul. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/402 "2013-07-13T16:48:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But what if you were to learn that, say, 30% of women seeing the ultrasound results decided not to have an abortion? Wouldn’t that indicate that it’s NOT simply sexist bullshit – that the ultrasound information is enough to change minds? Wisconsin already requires a “counseling session” and 24 hour waiting period. If there are women who really do not understand that being pregnant means there’s an embryo in their uterus (something covered in health class when I was in school in Wisconsin, but perhaps educational standards have declined under Walker), perhaps this could be mentioned to them at the mandatory counseling session. If simply being told isn’t as effective in changing women’s minds as being forced to submit to an unnecessary, unwanted, and unpleasant medical procedure then maybe it’s not the _information_ that’s making the difference but rather the inconvenience, embarrassment, and discomfort.\* But if the mandatory ultrasound does result in a significant drop in abortions in Wisconsin, I doubt it will be because a lot of women changed their minds. I suspect it will be because requiring an additional pre-abortion procedure complicated things on the clinic end enough that they weren’t able to take as many patients. \*I’ve never been pregnant, but I have had an ultrasound of my uterus for legitimate medical reasons. The ultrasound itself doesn’t hurt, but it has to be done with a very full bladder and “holding it” that long is painful and stressful. I was willing to put up with this because I wanted to make sure there was nothing wrong in there, but had this procedure been required of me because the governor didn’t trust I knew how babby was formed I’d have been figuratively and perhaps literally pissed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/403 "2013-07-13T17:29:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are supporting laws that make others live by Catholic rules. That specific rules are also shared by other (very similar) religions is besides the point. > > If you want to enforce the eating of God-Berries, because your God, Larry, says so. That’s shitty. If some other guy’s God, Dennis, also wants people to eat God-Berries that guy would be shitty if he tried to enforce it. The two of you trying to foist your religious beliefs in eating God-Berries on others means you’re both assholes, not suddenly reasonable, because your Larry Worship and his Dennis Worship overlap at this point. > > If a third group of atheists like God-Berries because they taste awesome, and want to force others to eat them to, that’s shitty. > > Each is undertaking the same shitty act for different reasons. Surely someone able to limp through law-school, like yourself can understand that the same action can have different motives, right? So, according to you, we shouldn’t have a safety net that helps care for the least among us because that’s forcing people adhere to Christian doctrine? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/404 "2013-07-13T17:50:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, according to you, we shouldn’t have a safety net that helps care for the least among us because that’s forcing people adhere to Christian doctrine? If you look up the definition of “opposite” you might find your post next to the one you quoted. The funny thing, of course., is that people like you would be the first to cry foul if you were subject to the consequences of your own philosophy. How would you like it if you were on trial some day and your judge had quotes from the Koran posted on the wall, or you were prohibited from pushing an elevator button from from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, or in school your kids were required to recite prayers from a different religion than yours? ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/405 "2013-07-13T19:20:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > My post said “in this case”, not “in some hypothetical case”. I also said “duly elected”, and like or not, gerrymandering is often legal and so, “duly” is an important operative word here. We elect legislators knowing they may or may not follow the will of the people on each and every issue. This is a feature, not a bug, especially since we can kick them out in the next election cycle if they stray too far off the desired path. The alternative, that they always represent the precise will of the people at any point in time is a terrifying thought, especially since we are talking about minorities here. Okay, then, yes, “in this case” a minority of hard-right woman-haters have pushed and enacted of anti-abortion measures which certainly appear to be against the will of a majority of the people there. See [Abortion, a losing issue for Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-abortion-wisconsin-scott-walker-20130708,0,7438703.story) Is that close enough to “in this case” for you? “Stray off the desired path”? Really? Many, if not most, of the republicans pulling this crap ran for office, and got elected, on a “jobs, jobs, jobs” platform. (And “Run! Gay Marriage” and “Guns: Cold Dead Hands, yadda, yadda”.) And I simply cannot believe that a “feature” of our electoral system is that we expect, or even anticipate, that those elected might ignore the will of the majority - NOT the minority! Forget the “precise will of the people at any point.” That’s just nitpicking and you know know it. The elected republicans have gone way, way off the deep end and they have used all manner of slimy underhanded chicanery to do it. God willing (He got Obama re-elected, didn’t he? 😉 ), they’ll be voted out of office asap. And IMO, it cannot be soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/406 "2013-07-13T19:22:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, according to you, we shouldn’t have a safety net that helps care for the least among us because that’s forcing people adhere to Christian doctrine? Yeah, that’s right, because only Christians would ever think to have a safety net that helps care for the least among us. :rolleyes: Because nobody ever took care of people that needed help until Christ was born, and nobody in non-Christian countries ever take care of people that need help. Good thing our fine Christian legislators voted for the SNAP food stamp program. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/407 "2013-07-13T19:27:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So the soul isn’t why you dislike abortion, and here: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462669&postcount=329](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462669&postcount=329) > You said: > > So what is it counselor? It’s not the brain, it’s not the soul, so why is killing a fetus bad, exactly? > > Human DNA? If so, can we excise cancerous tumors? They have DNA and no brain and no soul. Good point, **Lobohan**. Could it be a beating heart? Probably not since scientists can create a beating human heart in a petri dish. And I’m pretty sure nobody’s introduced legislation to save those. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/408 "2013-07-13T19:51:22Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Okay, then, yes, “in this case” a minority of hard-right woman-haters have pushed and enacted of anti-abortion measures which certainly appear to be against the will of a majority of the people there. See [Abortion, a losing issue for Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-abortion-wisconsin-scott-walker-20130708,0,7438703.story) Is that close enough to “in this case” for you? > > “Stray off the desired path”? Really? Many, if not most, of the republicans pulling this crap ran for office, and got elected, on a “jobs, jobs, jobs” platform. (And “Run! Gay Marriage” and “Guns: Cold Dead Hands, yadda, yadda”.) And I simply cannot believe that a “feature” of our electoral system is that we expect, or even anticipate, that those elected might ignore the will of the majority - NOT the minority! Forget the “precise will of the people at any point.” That’s just nitpicking and you know know it. The elected republicans have gone way, way off the deep end and they have used all manner of slimy underhanded chicanery to do it. > > God willing (He got Obama re-elected, didn’t he? 😉 ), they’ll be voted out of office asap. And IMO, it cannot be soon enough. It would not at all surprise me if most Americans were against this type of law. But the Virginia legislature was duly elected by the Virginia electorate, and legislatures pass laws all the time that the majority is against. There is nothing special here, the good folks of VA can kick the bums out next election cycle. And I don’t say that as an empty threat. The Republicans are either 1) idiots who don’t realize that their antiquated ideas on sex and abortion will seriously affect their electoral changes; or 2) Serious fanatics who value ideology over electoral success. This is a stupid, stupid law, and in the long wrong may actually bring some change in the direction most of us would like to see as people get tired of having Republicans try and get abortions banned or curtail their availability beyond what the people really want. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/409 "2013-07-13T19:58:46Z")
It is already difficult to accurately quantify abortion incidence per state because women can just go out of state (hence counted in that state’s statistics). It would be even more challenging to measure the impact of sonogram laws, as abortion rates in the US have been generally declining since the mid-90’s (attributed to greater access and use of contraceptives). So, how to attribute a decline directly related to viewing a sonogram, when women can go out of state for an abortion, or over the border to [buy misoprostol in a Mexican pharmacy](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/us/looking-to-mexico-for-an-alternative-to-the-abortion-clinic.html) or purchase it over the internet? If the limited evidence available about the impact of mandatory waiting periods, which require an additional in person visit before the procedure (like the sonogram law), is any [indication](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/MandatoryCounseling.pdf): > [@](#): > > Following enforcement of the law, abortion rates fell, the number of women going out of state for an abortion rose and the proportion of second-trimester abortions increased. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/410 "2013-07-13T19:59:49Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > If you look up the definition of “opposite” you might find your post next to the one you quoted. > > The funny thing, of course., is that people like you would be the first to cry foul if you were subject to the consequences of your own philosophy. > > How would you like it if you were on trial some day and your judge had quotes from the Koran posted on the wall, or you were prohibited from pushing an elevator button from from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, or in school your kids were required to recite prayers from a different religion than yours? That’s got zero to do with my post. The point is that just because a philosophical position might be shared by a religion, it doesn’t make the position a religious one. Now, do you care to comment on the points I actually have made? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/411 "2013-07-13T20:01:27Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Yeah, that’s right, because only Christians would ever think to have a safety net that helps care for the least among us. :rolleyes: Because nobody ever took care of people that needed help until Christ was born, and nobody in non-Christian countries ever take care of people that need help. > > Good thing our fine Christian legislators voted for the SNAP food stamp program. Oh, wait… You’re making my point for me. Thanks!!! ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/412 "2013-07-13T21:25:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re making my point for me. Thanks!!! Happy to help those what need it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/413 "2013-07-13T22:20:39Z")
I admit I haven’t chatted with magellan in a while, but I don’t recall him being this stupid. I’m sure my memory is at fault and his stupidity level is constant. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/414 "2013-07-13T23:29:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s got zero to do with my post. The point is that just because a philosophical position might be shared by a religion, it doesn’t make the position a religious one. > > Now, do you care to comment on the points I actually have made? And that exact point is what the post you tried to disagree with made. For example, atheists think murder is wrong even though it is one of the 10 Commandments. On the other hand, trying to make the 1st Commandment into law would be difficult to defend. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/415 "2013-07-14T01:25:24Z")
I don’t see any difficulty in defending a prohibition on interference with the internal development of alien civilizations. Pretty good idea, actually ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/416 "2013-07-14T01:56:27Z")
That’s the Prime Directive. The 1st Commandment is “A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.” ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/417 "2013-07-14T04:02:36Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > \*I’ve never been pregnant, but I have had an ultrasound of my uterus for legitimate medical reasons. The ultrasound itself doesn’t hurt, but it has to be done with a very full bladder and “holding it” that long is painful and stressful. I was willing to put up with this because I wanted to make sure there was nothing wrong in there, but had this procedure been required of me because the governor didn’t trust I knew how babby was formed I’d have been figuratively and perhaps literally pissed. I had a pelvic ultrasound a few months ago to see if there was something wrong down south (there wasn’t), and you’re right—it is horrendously painful and nerve-wracking to hold 32 oz. in one’s bladder ahead of time and then until they’re done with the procedure. I nearly threw up afterwards from the stress. Not that people like Walker or **Bricker** even give a flying urinal about such matters. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/418 "2013-07-14T23:58:28Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > And that exact point is what the post you tried to disagree with made. Cite. Please point to this post you claim you made. Perhaps I was in error. Or we’re referring back to two different posts. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/419 "2013-07-15T01:42:22Z")
Yeah, TWO posts. TWO POSTS! Not one post, but TWO POSTS! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/420 "2013-07-15T13:15:53Z")
An update: After some consideration of this issue, I wish to revise my position. I still support the ultrasound requirement, as long as the law gives the option of either kind of transducer. I no longer support a law that requires only a vaginal transducer. I no longer support a law that requires both a surgical facility AND hospital admitting privileges. I see no reason to believe those requirements are anything more a pretextual attempt to stop abortions by imposing onerous requirements, and not in any way a good-faith attempt to stop abortions by convincing anyone that an abortion stops a human life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=22)