# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/581 "2013-07-18T14:06:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If the doctor in your story – the one that’s accused of medical fraud with respect to unnecessary medical procedures – could point to a law that mandated those very procedures, do you think he’d have been arrested? Don’t you think the existence of a law that not merely suggests, but outright demands such procedures, would be a perfect defense for that doctor? > > So what are you asking? Be specific. Doctors are already obligated by other constraints, things like the hippocratic oath and a need to avoid malpractice. In **Bricker** world, yeah all you need is a law to compel doctors to perform unnecessary procedures and everything is peachy. But you seem blind to what actually determines the necessity of a procedure- the doctor’s judgement and the patient’s wishes. This law violates both of those considerations. We can’t have legislatures imposing a Demon Theory of Disease model on professional physicians. > [@Bricker](#): > > Asked and answered: what the law literally says is that women will be provided with a list of facilities that provide free ultrasounds. I regard this is a distinction without a difference, since the effect of that will be to make free ultrasounds available to an abortion-seeking woman. The story with the list is that the legislature does not specifically put the burden on Medicare or state tax dollars to pay for these ultrasounds- that’d trigger medical fraud charges immediately. Meanwhile, religious groups who can’t wait to start propagandizing young women are preparing to turn themselves into ‘free ultrasound providers’ to get on the list. But of course the state can’t mandate religious indoctrination any more than it can mandate unnecessary medical procedures. The law will be challenged and thrown out. > [@Bricker](#): > > True. But in Wisconsin, they do have to get an ultrasound, which is the subject of this thread. And by the same line of reasoning, I don’t have to win a debate with anyone for that to be so. They’ll have to attempt to defend an indefensible law though. > [@](#): > > Which religion? I have already posted examples of pro-life rabbis, pro-life imams, pro-life Buddhists, and even pro-life atheists. Good one. I know all sorts of people too, but if you had to take a guess, which religious groups would you say are behind this? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/582 "2013-07-18T14:13:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And I see Lamia has cut to the chase on my behalf. I actually started to write a long post explaining the distinction to him, but then I thought “There’s no way a person of normal intelligence really doesn’t understand this already.” I don’t think there’s much point in multiple people trying to explain a pretty obvious distinction if he’s either unwilling or unable to understand it. It is perhaps more interesting to think about why **Bricker** keeps claiming that the law effectively provides free ultrasounds when it doesn’t. If he’s a liar, what is he hoping to gain from this lie? Why does he keep trying to convince us that this law does something it really doesn’t do? It seems to me that the most likely explanation is that **Bricker** actually does understand on some level that this law places an unreasonable burden on women seeking abortions, so in order to justify his support of it he must try to convince us – or himself – that the required ultrasound won’t really be that much of a hassle. (He’s already ignored posts about how stressful and uncomfortable the ultrasound experience can be.) Of course, I may be reading too much into his posts. Maybe he really is that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/583 "2013-07-18T14:14:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Asked and answered: what the law literally says is that women will be provided with a list of facilities that provide free ultrasounds. I regard this is a distinction without a difference, since the effect of that will be to make free ultrasounds available to an abortion-seeking woman. Just how does that work? Ultrasounds become free just because you make a list? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/584 "2013-07-18T14:25:25Z")
It’s like claiming credit for providing free telephone service, when all you did was require that people get free telephone books. All those people putting up poles and running wires and maintaining switchboards… yeah, whatever… ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/585 "2013-07-18T15:00:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which religion? I have already posted examples of pro-life rabbis, pro-life imams, pro-life Buddhists, and even pro-life atheists. > > And by “won’t stick,” what do you mean, specifically? And I can find pro-choice Catholic priests and nuns. It doesn’t negate the fact that the Catholic church’s official stance on this issue is one of anti-abortion extremism. Or that much of the lobbying on this issue comes from Evangelicals and Catholics in the name of their religion. Most Jews and most rabbis are pro-choice. Jewish tradition has always (and hopefully always will) been intelligent enough to recognize that women are more important than any fetus. IVF is not only legal in Israel, it is also heavily subsidized. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/586 "2013-07-18T15:03:32Z")
Incidentally Jews of all political beliefs are pretty much completely in agreement on this issue. > [@](#): > > [Jewish Journal](http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscience/item/the_curious_consensus_of_jews_on_abortion) > > Essentially regardless of denominational affiliation or demographics, American Jews think abortion should be legal in all (49%) or almost all (44%) cases. That is, fully 93% of all American Jews support legalized abortion in some fashion. Even political leanings, while influential, are not determinative. Among Jewish Democrats support is 95%, but 77% of Jewish Republicans also favor legalized abortion in all or most cases, far exceeding the rate of other groups studied. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/587 "2013-07-18T15:12:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s like claiming credit for providing free telephone service, when all you did was require that people get free telephone books. > > All those people putting up poles and running wires and maintaining switchboards… yeah, whatever… No, it’s really not like that. It is like saying the government provides for free video conferencing if they provide you with skype’s website address. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/588 "2013-07-18T15:16:00Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just how does that work? Ultrasounds become free just because you make a list? No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/589 "2013-07-18T15:20:33Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > And I can find pro-choice Catholic priests and nuns. It doesn’t negate the fact that the Catholic church’s official stance on this issue is one of anti-abortion extremism. Or that much of the lobbying on this issue comes from Evangelicals and Catholics in the name of their religion. > > Most Jews and most rabbis are pro-choice. Jewish tradition has always (and hopefully always will) been intelligent enough to recognize that women are more important than any fetus. IVF is not only legal in Israel, it is also heavily subsidized. It’s funny that you bring up IVF…as though we can leanr something about Israel’s view of abortion by inference to IVF. Why not bring up Israel’s actual laws concerning abortion? According to Wikipedia, abortion in Israel is only legal if a “termination committee” approves it, and they will only in the following circumstances: > [@](#): > > The woman is younger than seventeen (the legal marriage age in Israel) or older than forty. > The pregnancy was conceived under illegal circumstances (rape, statutory rape etc.), in an incestuous relationship, or outside of marriage. > The fetus may have a physical or mental birth defect. > Continued pregnancy may put the woman’s life in risk, or damage her physically or mentally. > [@](#): > > When the relevant section of the penal code was originally written, it contained a “social clause” permitting women to seek abortions for social reasons, such as economic distress. The clause was withdrawn in 1980 under the initiative of the Orthodox parties. > [@](#): > > In 2006, MK Zehava Gal-On of Meretz proposed a bill that would eliminate the termination committee, effectively decriminalizing unrestricted abortion. Gal-On argued that women with financial means can have abortions in private clinics, bypassing the committee and therefore gaining rights based on their wealth. The bill was rejected by a wide margin. That seems like a great scheme to me. Do you also approve? Or would you like to revisit your great reverence for Israeli Jewish views on abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/590 "2013-07-18T15:22:32Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Incidentally Jews of all political beliefs are pretty much completely in agreement on this issue. American Jews. That was a short flirtation with Israel, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/591 "2013-07-18T15:27:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. Ok, so you agree that this law does nothing to make free ultrasounds available, unless you define “available” to mean “make a list of providers that already do it”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/592 "2013-07-18T15:27:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. How many of those facilities, if any, are “crisis centers” with the stated or unstated goal of “counseling” women from making a decision for abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/593 "2013-07-18T15:48:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. So “provides for” is synonymous with “intended to assist with finding”, or at least the two are so close in meaning that their distinction is without a difference? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/594 "2013-07-18T15:55:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s funny that you bring up IVF…as though we can leanr something about Israel’s view of abortion by inference to IVF. > > Why not bring up Israel’s actual laws concerning abortion? According to Wikipedia, abortion in Israel is only legal if a “termination committee” approves it, and they will only in the following circumstances: > > That seems like a great scheme to me. > > Do you also approve? > > Or would you like to revisit your great reverence for Israeli Jewish views on abortion? Oh please. Speaking of blabbling . . . Five seconds of googling brings up the following links: > [@](#): > > [About the Law Library | Law Library of Congress | Research Centers | Library of Congress](http://www.loc.gov/law/help/israel_reproduction_law_policy.php) > > It has been reported that over 98% of all requests for abortions to the committees have been approved and that the rate of abortions has generally declined in recent years. In addition to funding legally authorized abortions, the State funds the provision of family planning information and subsidizes contraceptives. > > In spite of the general low level of interest in this topic, an increased awareness of competing views on abortions has been sparked with the introduction of a bill in 2009 designed to repeal the legal requirement for a committees’ approval for abortions. Religious leaders and their representatives in the Knesset have recently expressed objections to abortion procedures based on religious grounds. A bill calling for prohibiting abortions under any circumstances following the twenty-second week of pregnancy has been twice defeated, most recently in November 2011. Many abortions are performed privately and doing so is not a crime: > [@](#): > > [http://www.jewishjournal.com/health/article/spurred\_by\_a\_shas\_lawmaker\_abortion\_politics\_arrives\_in\_israel\_20120618](http://www.jewishjournal.com/health/article/spurred_by_a_shas_lawmaker_abortion_politics_arrives_in_israel_20120618) > > Both Zeev and feminist organizations such as the Israel Women’s Network confirm that the committees approve 98 percent of requested abortions. > > Less than 10 percent of abortions in Israel are carried out after the 22nd week and some 20,000 legal abortions are performed in public hospitals every year in Israel, according to the Knesset research department. This does not include abortions performed because of concern for the mother’s physical health, which especially if there is any medical emergency are often not even brought before the committee. > > It is unknown how many women avoid the committee — whether because they are between 17 and 40, or because of personal preference — and turn to a private doctor. Having an abortion is not a criminal offense and, according to binding legal norms, unless medical malpractice is involved, the physician performing the abortion will not be prosecuted. Private abortions cost $1,500 to $1,750. Most Jews do not share your extremist views on this subject. Are you comfortable with these norms? Would you like legal abortions funded by the state? Do you want doctors prosecuted for doing abortions? Women prosecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/595 "2013-07-18T16:12:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. Oh, is that what the law is intended to do now? Funny, someone kept saying the law provided free ultrasounds. I hope those free ultrasound facilities in Wisconsin are prepared to keep up with a sudden increase in demand for their services, because this law sure isn’t doing anything to help them. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/596 "2013-07-18T16:27:32Z")
So basically abortions in Israel are pretty much not only legal in just about all circumstances but even state funded as long as you go through their committee. You can also get one privately at greater cost without going through the whole rigmarole and without fear of prosecution for you or the doctor. State funded abortions. One wonders how many of those Evangelical right wing Israel Must Exist to Provoke the End Times pro-Zionists nuts know about this. I would obviously get rid of the committee but otherwise that sounds quite sane to me. Do you agree, Bricker? If you have further questions about the law, I can easily ask my Israeli friends directly for you. They include a doctor, a law professor at UCLA-Hastings and a medical librarian. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/597 "2013-07-18T16:58:57Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > So basically abortions in Israel are pretty much not only legal in just about all circumstances but even state funded as long as you go through their committee. You can also get one privately at greater cost without going through the whole rigmarole and without fear of prosecution for you or the doctor. State funded abortions. One wonders how many of those Evangelical right wing Israel Must Exist to Provoke the End Times pro-Zionists nuts know about this. > > I would obviously get rid of the committee but otherwise that sounds quite sane to me. Do you agree, Bricker? If you have further questions about the law, I can easily ask my Israeli friends directly for you. They include a doctor, a law professor at UCLA-Hastings and a medical librarian. No, thank you. The israel question was just a hijack of the main question, which was your claim that my abortion position was a result of my religion, and my rebuttal pointing out that people of many different faiths, and even secular groups, also oppose abortion. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/598 "2013-07-18T17:10:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, thank you. The israel question was just a hijack of the main question, which was your claim that my abortion position was a result of my religion, and my rebuttal pointing out that people of many different faiths, and even secular groups, also oppose abortion. It was extremely amusing on some level to see you smugly and arrogantly jump the gun without bothering to do any real research on the subject. Especially after basically accusing me of being a babbling know-nothing moron barely worthy of rebuttal. 😃 I am simply pointing that much of the anti-abortion lobbying that is done here is done not only in the name of religion but done in the name of extremist religious viewpoints not shared by the vast majority of the American public at that. You are being incredibly disingenuous when you attempt to deny this. I am also sick and tired of hearing the implication that the only possible religious or moral point of view on this issue is that of the anti-abortionists. A Jew’s pro-choice beliefs are just as moral as your Catholic beliefs to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/599 "2013-07-18T17:40:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, thank you. The israel question was just a hijack of the main question, which was your claim that my abortion position was a result of my religion, and my rebuttal pointing out that people of many different faiths, and even secular groups, also oppose abortion. Well, it bought you some time to avoid addressing the on-topic questions put to you, but they’re still pending. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/600 "2013-07-18T17:48:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many of those facilities, if any, are “crisis centers” with the stated or unstated goal of “counseling” women from making a decision for abortion? Judging by Virginia’s helpful list, all of them wil be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=31)