# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/601 "2013-07-18T18:06:33Z")
Heh, I’m just picturing a state that requires attendance at a traffic school before granting a driver’s license, and all the traffic schools just show their students propaganda about how mass transit is morally superior. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/602 "2013-07-18T18:11:43Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Judging by Virginia’s helpful list, all of them wil be. I’d like a link to that. A cite for sore eyes, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/603 "2013-07-18T18:18:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it bought you some time to avoid addressing the on-topic questions put to you, but they’re still pending. Please repeat, and I’ll answer. Or provide post numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/604 "2013-07-18T18:20:27Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Thanks for reiterating once again what the law does provide for, because it surely does not provide for free ultrasounds, which is the distinction and the difference. It provides for a _list_, NOT for a free ultrasound. If there are no facilities that provide free ultrasounds, which is entirely conceivable (no pun intended), then the list will be blank, or if the listed providers are booked solid for the next 3 months, the list is useless, and no free ultrasounds will be available to an abortion-seeking woman, in effect or otherwise. The provision of said “list” would follow the letter of the law but not the spirit. “Precise phrasing” be damned, the law does not “provide for” free ultrasounds. > > Concede away - you’re wrong here and you know it. Not remotely. You’re speculating that the list will be blank, or all providers will be booked. Show me that’s true, and I’ll abandon my support for the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/605 "2013-07-18T18:22:16Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Then you are an idiot or a liar. No. You’re merely speculating that this list will be some useless trick and won’t meaningfully direct women to free ultrasounds. If you believe that, prove it. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/606 "2013-07-18T18:27:57Z")
Prove it by going to Wikipedia for five seconds and then posting the results. Smugly announce you therefore know everything there is to know on that subject. Judging by his thoughts on Israeli abortion laws, that ought to be evidence enough for Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/607 "2013-07-18T18:45:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’d like a link to that. A cite for sore eyes, as it were. I posted it earlier - but here is an article about NARAL’s investigation of said list. > **[NARAL says crisis pregnancy centers abuse ultrasound law](https://richmond.com/news/state-regional/naral-says-crisis-pregnancy-centers-abuse-ultrasound-law/article_b4c3a91e-e31b-5440-ba92-a11c4ebd6047.html)** > > Some crisis pregnancy centers are using Virginia’s law that requires doctors to tell patients where they can get a free ultrasound to try to discourage women from getting abortions, an here is the list itself (from last year, I believe - there are only 14 on this list, so the list NARAL had of 18 is newer) - I have not personally called any of these places to see if they are “crisis centers” - but NARAL says they have, and they are. [http://rhrealitycheck.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/06-29-12\_Free\_Ultrasound\_Listing.pdf](http://rhrealitycheck.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/06-29-12_Free_Ultrasound_Listing.pdf) ETA: NARAL Report [http://www.naralva.org/assets/bin/Mandatory%20Ultrasounds%20and%20Crisis%20Pregnancy%20Centers.pdf](http://www.naralva.org/assets/bin/Mandatory%20Ultrasounds%20and%20Crisis%20Pregnancy%20Centers.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/608 "2013-07-18T18:45:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not remotely. You’re speculating that the list will be blank, or all providers will be booked. Show me that’s true, and I’ll abandon my support for the bill. The bill provides nothing towards making free ultrasounds available, unless “make available” means “make a list of providers who already do it”. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/609 "2013-07-18T18:51:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I posted it earlier - but here is an article about NARAL’s investigation of said list… . Virginia is not Wisconsin. Wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see a direct parallel, in fact, be surprised to see otherwise. Still, to nitpick: not Wisconsin. Say, **Bricker** , isn’t Virginia your neck of the woods? Did you know about this? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/610 "2013-07-18T18:55:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > . > > Virginia is not Wisconsin. Wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see a direct parallel, in fact, be surprised to see otherwise. Still, to nitpick: not Wisconsin. > > Say, **Bricker** , isn’t Virginia your neck of the woods? Did you know about this? Yes, and that’s why I said: > [@](#): > > Judging by **Virginia’s** helpful list, all of them **will** be. (Emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/611 "2013-07-18T19:00:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Please repeat, and I’ll answer. Or provide post numbers? 561, 572, 593. They’re all on the same basic question regarding an earlier statement (two statements, actually) of yours. A repetition of “asked and answered” or “distinction without a difference” will not be satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/612 "2013-07-18T19:03:00Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Yes, and that’s why I said: > (Emphasis added) No suggestion of dishonesty implied. Personally, I have little doubt that this is the intended effect, to funnel vulnerable women into the helpful clutches of “crisis centers”. But to be strictly fair, I can’t prove it. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/613 "2013-07-18T19:14:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No suggestion of dishonesty implied. Personally, I have little doubt that this is the intended effect, to funnel vulnerable women into the helpful clutches of “crisis centers”. But to be strictly fair, I can’t prove it. Sorry if I seemed snippy in response. I didn’t mean to come across that way. I agree with you, I think that “crisis centers” will be the bulk - if not the entirety- of any list Wisconsin provides. It makes sense to me. The organizations who do choose to offer free ultrasounds and agree to be included on the list (Virginia officials apparently called around, asked price and then asked if the free ones _wanted_ to be included) will want to be on the list in order to advance an agenda. Most medical clinics either don’t do ultrasounds for free, or they will not want to be included - there is no profit in it for them. So the participants are likely to be mostly or all crisis centers, in my opinion. But I can’t prove it either. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/614 "2013-07-18T19:19:03Z")
I know we’ve all moved on to the “free ultrasounds only at anti-abortion crisis centers” and “where’s the _proof_, Bricker? The _proof_!” but I think this post bears repeating: > [@legalsnugs](#): > > Not true. These troglodytes ran on “jobs, jobs, jobs,” which voters were all for! This obsession with anti-abortion, with which the majority of Americans disagree, began after the election. And I think you’ll see the backlash in the next election which will prove this point. > > And where are all those jobs, jobs, jobs anyway? After the election, Wisconsin sucked at job creation, probably because all those republicans had their heads up all those uteri instead of doing the job for which they were elected. Bricker claims since these laws were passed by a legislature duly elected by the citizenry, ipso facto, a majority of the citizenry is obviously in favor of such laws. It’s like a logic puzzle: A majority of citizens voted for these legislators; these legislators were in favor of and passed this law; therefore, ta da, a majority of citizens want laws like these. I say it’s not so simple. As mentioned by legalsnugs, the Republicans voted in during the last election were running on topics such as “Jobs,” or “Obama is the evil Muslim socialist,” or in the case of Wisconsin, “Support the Walker regime and not those communist union thugs.” I am willing to bet abortion was a very, very minor part of those campaigns, if it came up at all. And to infer by extension that a vote for GOP Rep. Blowhard was going to be a vote for laws that close clinics, force unwanted and unnecessary ultrasounds, and restrict access to abortions to ridiculous lengths … I don’t think many Wisconsin voters actually had that on their minds. Not to mention, isn’t it funny that these practically carbon-copy measures are hitting the state capitols in all these places at the same time? Wisconsin, Texas, North Carolina … all with the intent of squeezing the legal clinics in each state with reasonable-sounding but nefarious restrictions on hospital access and hallway widths, and imposing more and more unnecessary requirements on women seeking abortions. I don’t recall such topics being the focus of many (if ANY) campaigns during the 2012 election. It’s almost as if this is being orchestrated by some outside force, some shadowy group pulling the strings of GOP-dominated legislatures, exactly midway between election cycles (we didn’t run on this last time, and we hope you forget by next time) … might one say, ALEC? How many citizens voted for ALEC to represent them in the legislature, Bricker? So, yeah, the law was passed by duly elected legislators in a legal fashion. I guess that makes it law. But it doesn’t follow that the majority of Wisconsin voters are in favor of such restrictive measures. And even if a GOP majority is reelected in 2014, it still doesn’t mean that. Elections are not and never have been single-issue affairs. People vote for Republicans or Democrats based on a range of factors, so, anti-abortion GOPers can and do get reelected even if a majority of voters in their district don’t agree with them on abortion, or gas tax levies, or social service funding. It’s not a one-to-one ratio, so you can’t say, “Well, it passed, so the majority of Wisconsinites must be okay with it! Nyuk nyuk, neener neener!” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/615 "2013-07-18T19:23:40Z")
Not sure they would have had to even mention it, the anti-choice crowd knows who to vote for. Unless some Democrat candidate offered himself or herself as more anti-choice than the Republican candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/616 "2013-07-18T19:47:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Ultrasounds ARE free at certain facilities in Wisconsin. The list is intended to assist mothers seeking to abort their unborn children with finding those facilities. That’s not what you said, so are you retracting your statement, “…women will be provided with a list of facilities that provide free ultrasounds…since _the effect of that_ will be to make free ultrasounds available to an abortion-seeking woman.”? (italics mine) The antecedent of “effect of that” is “list.” The list does not make ultrasounds free, it just notifies those who need to know where they can be obtained, if available. If there are no free ones available, the list will be blank. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/617 "2013-07-18T20:10:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > That’s not what you said, so are you retracting your statement, “…women will be provided with a list of facilities that provide free ultrasounds…since _the effect of that_ will be to make free ultrasounds available to an abortion-seeking woman.”? (italics mine) > > The antecedent of “effect of that” is “list.” The list does not make ultrasounds free, it just notifies those who need to know where they can be obtained, if available. If there are no free ones available, the list will be blank. Sure, I’ll retract it. I will substitute the following: There will be a list. That list will contain the locations of facilities which provide free ultrasounds. In my view, it’s possible to imagine an inference from those facts which results in free ultrasounds for women. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/618 "2013-07-18T20:13:17Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > It’s not a one-to-one ratio, so you can’t say, “Well, it passed, so the majority of Wisconsinites must be okay with it! Nyuk nyuk, neener neener!” Correct. But that’s the system. We don’t place each piece of prospective legislation before the citizenry at large. In an representative democracy, the will of the people is expressed through its elected leaders. That’s not the same as saying that the majority of people agree with each and every act done by the legislators. But our system of creating laws makes that irrelevant. If I’m arrested for insider trading, I cannot defend myself by saying that polls show a majority of Americans don’t think insider trading should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/619 "2013-07-18T20:27:13Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > …I am also sick and tired of hearing the implication that the only possible religious or moral point of view on this issue is that of the anti-abortionists… As it happens, not all religious people are anti-abortion zealots. Look at Texas: [Restrictive Abortion Bills In Texas Under Attack…by Texas Preachers!](http://www.liberalamerica.org/2013/07/16/restrictive-abortion-bills-in-texas-under-attack-by-texas-preachers/) This is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/620 "2013-07-18T20:54:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …In my view, it’s possible to imagine an inference from those facts which results in free ultrasounds for women. LOL. And you accuse \*me \*of speculating? What’s the difference from your imagining an inference that results in free ultrasounds and my imagining it may not? Oh, right - It’s Okay When A Republican Does It. You’re wrong about the law “providing for” ultrasounds. You’re wrong about the majority being anti-abortion based on who got elected. And you’re wrong about Israel’s abortion laws. But you just can’t admit errors, can you? Believe what you want, dude, but if you’re going to post an opinion here, at least man up when it’s been shown (repeatedly) that you’ve based your opinion on incorrect information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=32)