# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/701 "2013-07-19T14:23:01Z")
I think you mean ‘an invalid hijack of the state’s legislative power’ by religious morons who simply cannot accept the separation of Church and State. In some cases, candidates have bald-faced lied about their intentions wrt these laws in order to get elected. Regardless, the abortion question has been settled. It is not appropriate for the state to insert itself into medical practice in this way. Plus, an involuntary transvaginal ultrasound amounts to sexual assault via rape by a foreign object, according to [rape treatment centers](http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/definitions). I sometimes sprinkle vitriol into my arguments not out of terror but exasperation with these half-witted and relentless religious dumb shits who want to tear down our most fundamental rights in order to impose a theocracy on everyone. The rampant, transparent stupidity imposed on our system at all levels is simply annoying, it is annoying that the citizens have to waste their energy undoing this, and it’s annoying that we’re re-fighting these battles when we should be taking anti-trust actions against the big banks. But you go ahead and tell me how I feel and what I think, o seer, o prophet! ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/702 "2013-07-19T14:32:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. The study seems to suggest that the choice of viewing an ultrasound before an abortion is a good one. To the extent that this law ensures all women in Wisconsin have that choice, it seems relevant. > > The only major difference is this law requires the ultrasound - but it specifically does not require the woman view it. In fact, it specifically says that no person permitted to require that she view it. So this law gives the choice of viewing an ultrasound to the prospective mother. What part of the word “choice” can’t you comprehend? Not forcing a woman to view an ultrasound that was forced on her? That’s a valid “choice” in BrickerWorld? Ugh. You are so not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/703 "2013-07-19T14:35:27Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > More accurately, you have indicated that you approve of the intended effects of the law but have provided nothing but supposition, appeal to emotion and argumentum ad populum to support the belief that the law will actually accomplish the aim of reducing abortions. Balancing that are the very real burdens imposed on women who try to exercise their rights. Actually, according to the study cited: “None of the women changed her mind about having the abortion after having seen the US [ultrasound].” Which pretty much guts his whole “intended effects of the law” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/704 "2013-07-19T14:35:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What isn’t the most relevant portion this one: > [@](#): > > All ten interviewees recommended that this choice be offered to every woman and recommended more communication between care providers and patients at the time of the US. > . > . > . > . > CONCLUSIONS: > Offering the choice to view the ultrasound is both feasible and beneficial to women having abortions. Our findings support those of the only other study published on the subject. Ah, so you don’t know – or don’t care – what the word “choice” means. Explains a lot, really. What’s more interesting to me is that you have nothing to say about this study’s findings with regard to the effect of viewing an ultrasound on a woman seeking abortion. You made an awfully big deal about how you thought this mandatory ultrasound law would cause women to change their minds about having abortions and that this was the reason why you supported the law, but when presented with evidence to the contrary it suddenly becomes a topic not worth mentioning anymore. Instead you’d rather try to distract us with lies about what the law actually does. That’s what you did when **EverwonderWhy** originally posted about this study (you ignored **EW** ’s post and kept insisting that the law provides free ultrasounds), and that’s what you’re doing now: > [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. The study seems to suggest that the choice of viewing an ultrasound before an abortion is a good one. To the extent that this law ensures all women in Wisconsin have that choice, it seems relevant. > > The only major difference is this law requires the ultrasound - but it specifically does not require the woman view it. In fact, it specifically says that no person permitted to require that she view it. So this law gives the choice of viewing an ultrasound to the prospective mother. Women already had the right to choose whether or not to view an ultrasound. What this law does is strip them of their right to choose whether or not to _have_ an ultrasound. That women will not actually be strapped into a _Clockwork Orange_ style chair and have their eyes held open during the procedure doesn’t change the fact that this law makes the ultrasound mandatory. It gives women fewer choices, not more choices. It’s a terrible law, and your inability to defend it without lying about it certainly doesn’t make it seem any better. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/705 "2013-07-19T14:37:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t claim the process is evidence of wisdom – I claim it’s evidence that deference is owed to the law as a valid enact of a state’s plenary legislative power. You’re trying to retreat to safe legalistic ground again. Regardless of the syllogistic validity of the process, you are claiming the result is wise, which I take as a clear sign that YOU are not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/706 "2013-07-19T14:41:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You’re trying to retreat to safe legalistic ground again. Regardless of the syllogistic validity of the process, you are claiming the result is wise, which I take as a clear sign that YOU are not. You’re of course welcome to your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/707 "2013-07-19T14:42:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t regard the 24 hour waiting period as major. :rolleyes: It’s grossly insulting to women, and a major burden on poor women. Which is the point, after all. Having to drive halfway across a state multiple times is a huge burden for someone who has little money, a job they can’t take much time off from and quite likely children to take care of. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/708 "2013-07-19T14:48:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the second choice. But it’s just my speculation. It may shock and awe you to hear this, but not every woman has a maternal instinct or a sudden gushy feeling that comes over her during the aforementioned procedure. Then again, you wouldn’t know. You never can. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/709 "2013-07-19T14:54:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: It’s grossly insulting to women, and a major burden on poor women. Which is the point, after all. Having to drive halfway across a state multiple times is a huge burden for someone who has little money, a job they can’t take much time off from and quite likely children to take care of. I am sure the guardians of accurate statements will descend on you now to point out the error of your claim that anyone is being forced to drive halfway across the state of Wisconsin. Because they are Truth’s Servants. Let’s see. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/710 "2013-07-19T14:56:15Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > It may shock and awe you to hear this, but not every woman has a maternal instinct or a sudden gushy feeling that comes over her during the aforementioned procedure. > > Then again, you wouldn’t know. You never can. Sure, not every woman. Maybe not even most women. But some will. That bother you? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/711 "2013-07-19T14:58:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That bother you? What are you implying? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/712 "2013-07-19T15:01:02Z")
A. Some of the babies will be loved by the mothers whose hearts were changed by viewing the ultrasound. B. Some will be smothered with a pillow or “accidentally” drown while bathing by immature, overstressed, post-partum depressed young women driven out of their skulls with their crying. C. Some will be physically abused by resentful parents. That same emotional component that the ultrasound appeals to also sends kids to the ER for digging in mommy’s purse. D. Some will be emotionally crippled by parents who can’t love someone they didn’t want. I suspect that A. will be the small minority; but 100% of A, B, C and D will have been spared abortion, and that’s what counts. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/713 "2013-07-19T15:05:31Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > A. Some of the babies will be loved by the mothers whose hearts were changed by viewing the ultrasound. > > B. Some will be smothered with a pillow or “accidentally” drown while bathing by immature, overstressed, post-partum depressed young women driven out of their skulls with their crying. > > C. Some will be physically abused by resentful parents. That same emotional component that the ultrasound appeals to also sends kids to the ER for digging in mommy’s purse. > > D. Some will be emotionally crippled by parents who can’t love someone they didn’t want. > > I suspect that A. will be the small minority; but 100% of A, B, C and D will have been spared abortion, and that’s what counts. And a significant portion of A, B, and D will grow up in poverty because their mothers were emotionally manipulated into keeping a child they couldn’t afford to raise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/714 "2013-07-19T15:09:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What are you implying? I’m implying that I wish **vivalostwages** to answer the question, “Does that bother you?” That’s the purpose for ending a sentence with the interrogative question mark. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/715 "2013-07-19T15:13:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m implying that I wish **vivalostwages** to answer the question, “Does that bother you?” > > That’s the purpose for ending a sentence with the interrogative question mark. On that note, do any of the possibilities brought up in Posts 712 and 713 bother _you_? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/716 "2013-07-19T15:13:30Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > A. Some of the babies will be loved by the mothers whose hearts were changed by viewing the ultrasound. > > B. Some will be smothered with a pillow or “accidentally” drown while bathing by immature, overstressed, post-partum depressed young women driven out of their skulls with their crying. > > C. Some will be physically abused by resentful parents. That same emotional component that the ultrasound appeals to also sends kids to the ER for digging in mommy’s purse. > > D. Some will be emotionally crippled by parents who can’t love someone they didn’t want. > > I suspect that A. will be the small minority; but 100% of A, B, C and D will have been spared abortion, and that’s what counts. I guess I missed where Wisconsin also criminalized adoption. Could you remind me when that law passed? If it didn’t, can you explain why you failed to include “E. Some will be born and given up for adoption, to be raised by people that will love them and care for them?” Since we’re all about accurate and complete statements here, the omission of that one is sure a head-scratcher. I am speculating that you left it off the list because the thought of a positive outcome in any case where abortion is desired but doesn’t happen is repugnant. Was that it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/717 "2013-07-19T15:14:51Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > On that note, do any of the possibilities brought up in Posts 712 and 713 bother _you_? Sure. But as I note in post 716, I don’t agree that the possibilities listed in 712 and 713 are an exhaustive list of outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/718 "2013-07-19T15:15:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I guess I missed where Wisconsin also criminalized adoption. Could you remind me when that law passed? > > If it didn’t, can you explain why you failed to include “E. Some will be born and given up for adoption, to be raised by people that will love them and care for them?” > > Since we’re all about accurate and complete statements here, the omission of that one is sure a head-scratcher. > > I am speculating that you left it off the list because the thought of a positive outcome in any case where abortion is desired but doesn’t happen is repugnant. Was that it? How many women will bond with their child in-utero, as you expect and hope to happen, and then be inclined to give them up for adoption once they’re born? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/719 "2013-07-19T15:32:13Z")
Why would anyone think its a good idea to compel someone who does not want to be a parent to be one? Has anyone here never met someone who didn’t want children and agreed wholeheartedly with their decision, on the ground that they would thoroughly suck at it? If a woman can but barely support the two children she has, why should she be compelled to subject those extant children to the brutal limitations of poverty? In many cases, the cold equations of economics are the deciding factor, how much more rational can a woman’s decision be? How does maternal love alter that, when it based on the maternal love of the children she already has? Love is a wondrous thing, it may be as close to the divine as we ever approach. But it is not magic, it does not make money appear. What sort of blasphemy insists that such a holy gift be turned into a burden and a tribulation? What sort of cramped, mean, and cruel religion is this? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/720 "2013-07-19T15:35:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m implying that I wish **vivalostwages** to answer the question, “Does that bother you?” > > That’s the purpose for ending a sentence with the interrogative question mark. “Just askin’, is all” he said, batting big, brown, innocent eyes… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=37)