# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/881 "2013-07-23T19:08:40Z")
Once again, the Counselor displays his mastery of the art of changing the subject. Damn, but he’s good at that! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/882 "2013-07-23T19:09:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sounds like a convenient excuse - what kind of risks and penalties did you have in mind for people to demonstrate their sincerity? Losing a bit of money. Or winning it, if they were right in addition to being convinced. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/883 "2013-07-23T19:16:36Z")
Doesn’t it depend at least somewhat on the purpose of the ultrasound provider? Wouldn’t we expect at least somewhat different results from the dedicated anti-choice “crisis center”? Are they legally entitled to provide inaccurate medical information, like abortions cause breast cancer and make future pregnancy more difficult? Lies, not to put too fine a point on it. Would such lying be _kosher_, if it protects an unborn citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/884 "2013-07-23T19:17:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Once again, the Counselor displays his mastery of the art of changing the subject. Damn, but he’s good at that! Well, not if we notice him doing it. The magician’s misdirection fails if we don’t look at his right hand waving the handkerchief but instead notice his left hand digging into his pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/885 "2013-07-23T19:21:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Losing a bit of money. > > Or winning it, if they were right in addition to being convinced. I don’t see what “being convinced” has to do with it - either the agreed conditions of the wager were met or they were not. And of course… define “bit”. Is $2 not a “bit”? In old-time slang terms, it’s actually _sixteen_ bits. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/886 "2013-07-23T20:21:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But you can gain information about their sincerity if you see they are willing to risk something material on their being right. Not necessarily… I might think “there’s only a 10% chance that this will work, but it would have SUCH benefits if it did that we should enshrine it into law”. I’m totally sincere in my belief that it might work, my hope that it will work, and my motive for proposing it; but would still not be incentivized to make a bet on it. In any case, the claim you made in post 865 was something like “well, I see that it did in fact work, therefore I accept that the people proposing it were sincere”. I think it’s quite possible for people to insincerely propose something that ends up having an effect, and also for sincere people to propose something that ends up not having an effect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/887 "2013-07-23T20:39:35Z")
[http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf](http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf) A .pdf from NARAL about the prospect of “free” ultrasound providers… > [@](#): > > …Another troubling provision of the bill requires that providers give women a state-prepared list of places that provide free ultrasounds. Advertising free ultrasounds is a well-known tactic used by anti-choice “crisis pregnancy centers” (CPCs) to get women to enter their facilities without knowing the CPCs’ anti-choice bias. > > An investigation done by NARAL of CPCs in Wisconsin found that 100% of the centers we visited provided women with medically inaccurate information about the risks of abortion and used scare tactics or shaming to pressure a woman not to choose abortion. > > NARAL’s full report is available at [prochoicewisconsin.org](http://prochoicewisconsin.org). > > “The ultrasound requirement as drafted is, at best, an effort to guilt and shame women by requiring a state mandated description of the ultrasound and, at worst, an effort to direct them to biased, anti-choice CPCs that outright lie to women,” added Dye. > > “While purporting to want to inform women, the bill in fact creates a mechanism that will result in more women being misinformed about abortion by referring them to centers giving disproven medical information about abortion. Regardless of our views on abortion, we should all be able to agree that women deserve the truth. The government should not be involved in directing women to these centers.” (Emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/888 "2013-07-23T20:47:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf](http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf) > > A .pdf from NARAL about the prospect of “free” ultrasound providers… > > (Emphasis added) If true, I find that extremely troubling. Women should be able avail themselves of an abortion without being required by law to be harassed by a group of anti-abortion activists. I really want to see this go to the SCOTUS and get resolved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/889 "2013-07-23T20:51:33Z")
Well, I’m a bit embarrassed, **John**. Trying to drag the conversation away from the crucial issue of **Bricker** ’s betting habits and what sincerity they may reflect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/890 "2013-07-23T21:48:15Z")
D’oh! He’s a better magician than I thought! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/891 "2013-07-24T01:49:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf](http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/130530NARAL.pdf) > > A .pdf from NARAL about the prospect of “free” ultrasound providers… > > (Emphasis added) Is one of the outright lies, “This is your baby’s arm?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/892 "2013-07-24T02:17:38Z")
If it’s a crack baby, can they say “This is your baby’s arm on drugs” ? Anyway, are we dropping the betting discussion? If Bricker’s next two posts don’t mention it, I’ll assume so. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/893 "2013-07-24T06:40:59Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > It is also my understanding that many, if not all, of these so-called pregnancy counseling centers that offer free ultrasounds will refuse to forward the ultrasound results (or whatever is supposed to be forwarded) to abortion providers because they don’t want to contribute to anyone actually getting an abortion. This was bothering me, so after more searching I found this: [NARAL says crisis pregnancy centers abuse ultrasound law](http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/naral-says-crisis-pregnancy-centers-abuse-ultrasound-law/article_b4c3a91e-e31b-5440-ba92-a11c4ebd6047.html). I knew I had read something about it, but this makes it look like an aberration rather than a policy: > [@](#): > > In other instances, NARAL says, centers have refused to turn over ultrasound results to women who planned to take them to an abortion appointment. NARAL said the Little Life Pregnancy Center in Danville was one such center — an allegation that the center’s executive director, Carol Slaughter, denied. > > “Our center would provide that,” she said in a telephone interview. > > A patient at the Blue Ridge Women’s Center in Roanoke filed a complaint with the Department of Health about her experience, saying she asked the center to fax a copy of her ultrasound to an abortion provider “and I was told they do not support abortion clinics or help provide and (sic) information to any abortion clinics.” > > Blue Ridge chief executive officer Phil Holsinger said he had not seen the report, but added that the center does provide ultrasound images to patients who request them. But if the request to fax was made over the phone, he said, the patient would be told to come in with proper identification before the center would forward the medical record to the clinic. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/894 "2013-07-24T10:17:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If it’s a crack baby, can they say “This is your baby’s arm on drugs” ? > Anyway, are we dropping the betting discussion? If Bricker’s next two posts don’t mention it, I’ll assume so. No. The purpose of betting remains unchanged. The only valid objection I’ve seen was the comment that someone could genuinely believe in an outcome, but also believe that outcome had a less than optimal chance of happening. And of course that’s not what I am talking about here. I’m talking about the hyper-confident, “This law will be declared unconstitutional!” or “The only effect will be to harass and delay.” Neither claim so much as hints at the speaker’s lack of total confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/895 "2013-07-24T11:19:56Z")
Sounds more like a personal issue than a defense of Winconsin’s law. So we’re confident. Get over it. Personally, I’m prepared to bet two bucks on SCOTUS overturning the ultrasound requirement. I certainly believe they _should_. I’m less then 100% certain they _will_. I’ve made predictions on eight of the individual justices and I’d be surprised if I got less than six correct. Besides, harassment and delay are but two of several effects of this law, so anyone who says “only”, well, you correct them to your heart’s content. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/896 "2013-07-24T13:53:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is one of the outright lies, “This is your baby’s arm?” As Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I have no idea what point you are trying to make, here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/897 "2013-07-24T13:57:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I have no idea what point you are trying to make, here. Inasmuch as Debs died over eighty years ago, I agree he’d make an excellent witness for most of your pronouncements. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/898 "2013-07-24T14:01:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sounds more like a personal issue than a defense of Winconsin’s law. So we’re confident. Get over it. No, you’re not confident. You’re willing to _pretend_ to be confident but not actually risk anything. No stigma attaches to you on this board for being wrong in such a good cause, after all. You’re free to flap your gums until proven wrong, at which point the dialogue will shift to wondering why I am bringing up that past, telling me to stop gloating, and sorrowfully announcing that the writer has lost “all respect” for me and how I used to be so reasonable…because here, “reasonable” is defined as not calling people out on being wrong, as long their wrongness was in support of the preferred narrative. A wager changes that. A wager makes you actually risk something – it places a cost on your ability to claim confidence when none is there. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/899 "2013-07-24T14:33:48Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’d bet $20 Walker loses his next election, whether it is for Governor, POTUS, Congress, you name it. He certainly won’t have an 8 or 10 to 1 money advantage the next time. He also won’t have 8 months to campaign against 1 month, but he’ll still be hard to beat for re-election. It seems the Democrats in the state don’t really have a good strong candidate to put up against him. Barrett has failed miserably to excite voters and hardly anyone else seems interested. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/900 "2013-07-24T14:49:49Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > He certainly won’t have an 8 or 10 to 1 money advantage the next time. He also won’t have 8 months to campaign against 1 month, but he’ll still be hard to beat for re-election. > > It seems the Democrats in the state don’t really have a good strong candidate to put up against him. Barrett has failed miserably to excite voters and hardly anyone else seems interested. The WI Democratic Party has learned some of the best ways to piss off voters that I’ve ever seen. First there was the ridiculous stunt to flee the state and try to shut down the government instead of fighting and voting on their principles and educating the voters about the issues. Before the recall election they sent out what must have been an incredibly expensive mailing – each recipient got a piece of mail that showed the voting status of their 8 closest neighbors. It showed whether you neighbors voted in each of the last 3 state elections and was intended to shame people to going to the voting booth, and give the activist types (lots of _them_ in Madison) ammunition to go harass their not so politically active neighbors. I’m sure a lot of people were so pissed that they stayed home for the recall, but that’s just MHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=46)