# I pit Gov. Scott Walker for mandating the unnecessary inserting of objects into women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746 "2013-07-05T20:19:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1241 "2013-08-14T16:15:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Self-interest. I don’t want you to kill me. To me, _my_ life has value. Value assigned by you because of your own interest. I referred to intrinsic value. Your life doesn’t have intrinsic value, it only has the value you assign it and applies to you only. How does a zygote have value? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1242 "2013-08-14T16:18:14Z")
_Embryo, ergo sum._ ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1243 "2013-08-14T16:30:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Be serious. :rolleyes: ¨ I am. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1244 "2013-08-14T17:31:34Z")
Heck, I’m willing to stipulate that a human life has value. It’s just not an absolute value above all else. Like any commodity, its value is affected by its location, its timing, its condition, and what the market is willing to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1245 "2013-08-14T17:55:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sure a dandelion is happier than a human being, too. Funfact: A fetus is as sentient as a dandelion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1246 "2013-08-14T18:36:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Value assigned by you because of your own interest. I referred to intrinsic value. Your life doesn’t have intrinsic value, it only has the value you assign it and applies to you only. How does a zygote have value? By that definition, nothing has intrinsic value. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1247 "2013-08-14T19:31:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Peep. > > By that I mean I have consistently and strongly spoken out against the death penalty, and against stand your ground laws. > > Why are you ascribing to me arguments that come from others? It was merely an aside commenting on how I perceive your ideological brethren to cleave so tightly to the arguments you are attempting to make. As well, to show that the government sanctioned killings, which have majority approval and have been around in the States at least since the late 1800’s, have not lead to the bad results you vaguely foretell. The main thrust of my comments was that making an unfounded argument based on the fear of what may come to pass if the government allows this specific kind of killing is no argument against abortion at all. Would you like some tea? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1248 "2013-08-14T19:36:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By that definition, nothing has intrinsic value. Wow, fuckin’ deep, man! Pass me another slice of the pepperoni and a beer? Say, how did you do on your metaphysics final? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1249 "2013-08-14T19:43:45Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > It was merely an aside commenting on how I perceive your ideological brethren to cleave so tightly to the arguments you are attempting to make. As well, to show that the government sanctioned killings, which have majority approval and have been around in the States at least since the late 1800’s, have not lead to the bad results you vaguely foretell. On this board, there’s no doubt that all conservatives are seen as my ideological brethren. But among groups of conservatives, I take flack for my liberal views regarding the death penalty, as well as other things. So I don’t agree that I have many ideological brethren. Nor do I agree with you. In the late 1800s, the government was much more free with the death penalty, and society as a whole was much harsher and less friendly towards all life. People accepted cruel punishments and cruelty in their lives, towards people and animals. Bull-baiting, dog fights, and cock-fighting were perfectly legal, and were greeted with no real animus or social penalty in much of the country. So I’d say that the bad results I mention are demonstrated by our history, rather than refuted by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1250 "2013-08-14T19:51:46Z")
So is there a correlation between capital punishment and abortion? Is “an all-around low regard for human life” something that can be actually observed, or is it just another vapid meaningless phrase like “humans are special” ? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1251 "2013-08-14T20:18:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nor do I agree with you. In the late 1800s, the government was much more free with the death penalty, and society as a whole was much harsher and less friendly towards all life. People accepted cruel punishments and cruelty in their lives, towards people and animals. Bull-baiting, dog fights, and cock-fighting were perfectly legal, and were greeted with no real animus or social penalty in much of the country. > > So I’d say that the bad results I mention are demonstrated by our history, rather than refuted by it. And I assert that the your society developed to become less harsh and more friendly to life in spite of the stand your ground laws and death penalty and the reduction in using the death penalty was a result of that change and not a cause. Your assertion of bad results would thus stand refuted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1252 "2013-08-14T20:25:03Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > And I assert that the your society developed to become less harsh and more friendly to life in spite of the stand your ground laws and death penalty and the reduction in using the death penalty was a result of that change and not a cause. > > Your assertion of bad results would thus stand refuted. IF I believed that you were correct about which was the horse and which was the cart, THEN it would stand refuted. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1253 "2013-08-14T20:48:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > IF I believed that you were correct about which was the horse and which was the cart, THEN it would stand refuted. In another probably futile attempt to get a response from Bricker, did _Roe_ in the U.S. and 1988’s _R. v. Mongentaler_ in Canada warn of a decreasing regard for human life in either country, possibly to late 19th-century levels? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1254 "2013-08-14T20:52:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By that definition, nothing has intrinsic value. Exactly, now you’re getting it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1255 "2013-08-14T22:17:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Funfact: A fetus is as sentient as a dandelion. Cite, please, that dandelions can feel pain. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1256 "2013-08-14T22:40:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I was going to just say they’re idiots, but I think this deserves a serious answer. To me, it would depend on why they are pro-life more than the fact that they are in the first place. I’d say the actual reason is not as important as whether or not a fair observer would call it reasonable. In other words, if a non religious group was opposed to abortion because they felt that a prolonged drought would be the result of abortions, I’d say that would be un reasonable, not rational. If they were of the opinion—correctly or incorrectly—that the baby is sentient or that we should end life once conceived, then I’d say the were rational reasons. From the sites, I haven’t seen any irrational arguments against abortion from atheist groups. I don’t personally agree with their reasoning, but it is rational. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its only because in reality, it happens with near certainty. At some point, one gets tired of the cat and mouse. Plus, like I mentioned before, there are certain arguments I hold to be intrinsically religious so anyone trying to science their way into a logical debating using those arguments is automatically going to be wrong in my book I don’t think that’s a principled or constructive way to debate. YMMV > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Part of that is exaggerating for effect, but I hope you will address the rest of that point. Okay. What that argument boils down to is that you want to be able to prove someone to be a hypocrite. So what. They may be hypocritical, but that doesn’t mean that either of their seemingly contradictory stances are wrong or invalid. And you want to use your own assumptions to do that. Take the example of someone being opposed to abortion and in favor of the death penalty. One can easily apply criteria by which they fairly be characterized as being a hypocrite. But so what? Does that assessment invalidate both of their positions? One? Which one? And it doesn’t take in to account that they might have perfectly valid reasons, exhibiting consistent thinking, that apply. For instance, they might not feel compelled to extend the same thinking to an innocent life that they do to a muderous one. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I believe there is absolutely no way to argue ID secularly. What you say sounds good in theory, just argue the points logically as they are presented, but in these secretly religious arguments, there inevitably comes a point where you get to the religious part. I’m simply trying not to waste any more time than I have to. Well, it depends what you mean by “religious”. If you mean mentioning something tied to a specific religious doctrine, then I’d agree. But I am of the opinion that the question of how we came to be is NOT first and foremost a religious question but a philosophical/scientific one. Assuming that every religion ever known to man is completely wrong, that does not invalidate the _concept_ of a grand watchmaker. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because I don’t believe the religious side argues honestly and am sick and tired of being roped into an intellectual exercise that turns out to be religion cloaked in the guise of fact? So, the answer is for you to not argue honestly and fairly. Why would you so easily cede the higher ground. I say force them to argue 100% rationally, secularly. If they revert back to religion, then I think they’ve conceded their argument (and I’d tell them so). But if they leave religion off the table, the fair—and the rational—thing to do is not bring it up yourself. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1257 "2013-08-14T22:43:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Value assigned by you because of your own interest. I referred to intrinsic value. Your life doesn’t have intrinsic value, it only has the value you assign it and applies to you only. How does a zygote have value? I have to agree with **Bricker** , here. Surely, those in society must make certain assumptions about life. And we have. If not, nothing is objectively wrong with murder, rape, slavery. Right? Hey, I’m horny…oh, look a cute college girl about to walk to her car in the dark. Score! ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1258 "2013-08-14T23:20:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > IF I believed that you were correct about which was the horse and which was the cart, THEN it would stand refuted. You made the original assertion and then tried to present a “just so” story to back it up. I’m just following suit. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1259 "2013-08-15T00:22:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Cite, please, that dandelions can feel pain. It’s cute how utterly uninformed and genuinely gullible you are on a broad variety of topics. > **[Fetal Pain Is A Lie: How Phony Science Took Over The Abortion Debate](https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/fetal-pain-lie-how-phony-science-took-over-abortion-debate/)** > > New laws banning abortion after 20 weeks are based on pseudoscience -- and real research proves it conclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746/1260 "2013-08-15T00:29:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Very possibly, yes. A poster’s poor logic can indeed have that effect on me. Again, you think that dictionary definitions trump human rights. Someone should slap your parents for their utter failure. > [@](#): > > Yeesh. You’re looking at _one_ _motivation_, i.e., the potential shooter’s intent to stay alive. If you were referring to the motivations of Knife Carrier A (wanting to kill you) or Knife Carrier B (returning knife to kitchen), those are two completely different and completely separate motivations tied to two completely different actions. The problem you present is only a problem because the person with the gun has to guess the knife-carrier’s motivation. Either way, horrible analogy. No, you’re just not smart enough to understand it. The motivation of the shooter is the issue. The action is the same. Shoot the 15 year old. The first time the shooter is reasonably defending himself. The second time, it’s murder. Two different motivations that produce the same action. Just like a pro-lifer person can be atheist or religious. You really are inept at the very act of _thinking_. > [@](#): > > Now, I we do agree that more than one motivation can exist for the same action, or position. But no one, other than possibly you, seems to have a problem with that concept. You’re the one seemingly unable to accept that opposition to abortion can be either religious or completely secular. Even though links have been provided to atheist groups who oppose abortion. You then seem to want to use **Bricker** as proxy for society at large. As I responded to you a week ago, the title of this thread is not “Bricker’s Opposition to Abortion”. You attempt to create that straw giant and attempt to slay it. So, I called you on your straw-manning and point out your failure in even trying to slay it. No extra charge. I’ve said several times in this very thread that disagreement with abortion can be both secular and religious. And it’s the religious version that I have issue with, in regards to legislation. Also, you have no idea what _straw man_ means. Look it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-gov-scott-walker-for-mandating-the-unnecessary-inserting-of-objects-into-women/662746.md?page=64)